Garland

...some people would look at these next clips and make judgements...I just thought they were cool...and it amazes me how good kyokushin guys are at learning other arts. (Kyokushin is just a Japanese term for muay thai...no, really... I'm half joking)

YouTube - Kyokushin Vs Muay Thai

YouTube - Kyokushin vs Muay Thai in 1964

YouTube - Kyokushin Vs Muay Thai

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JkD187

Find anythere there to disagree with? i sure dont know how anyone can argue with facts.http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/i...lies/smile.gif

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SamuraiGuy

Helio was like 130-140 pounds.

And I know GJJ is all about how the smaller man can win,but lets be realistic here.

Even Kimura said Helio had better technique than him. Doesnt mean Kimura couldnt smash him though.

It would be like pitting the best 140 LB Kyukoushin (sp?) karateka against Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (Big Nog), and having them go at it, who do you think is gonna win.

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Garland

"Helio eventually fought 17 fights including matches against the world wrestling champion, Wladek Zbyszko and a qualifying fight against the #2 jiu-jitsu fighter in the world, Kato, who Helio choked unconscious in 6 minutes. This victory enabled him to enter the ring with the world champion, Masahiko Kimura, who outweighed Helio by over 80 pounds. Helio Gracie holds the record for the longest match in history for a battle against his former student, Waldemar Santana, which lasted an amazing 3 hours and 40 minutes!"
http://www.gracieacademy.com/helio_gracie.html

Quality over quantity.

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Thai Bri

I said "the myth of the invincible martial artist." That does not mean that he didn't actually exist, now does it? Please pay attention to detail.

And here we are, exaggerating his prowess. Where are the films of all these fights?

The guy was fanatical, and he did acheive great things in many ways. But he was just a man, and I don't think he would last particularly long on todays MMA circuit..... even if he were allowwed to use his bull killing blows......

Uke

Ok, let's pay attention to detail.

You ask: "Where are the films of all these fights?", which is no evidence to the contrary. Just you asking for proof you aren't willing to find yourself.

Then you go ahead to write: "The guy was fanatical, and he did acheive great things in many ways. But he was just a man, and I don't think he would last particularly long on todays MMA circuit..... even if he were allowwed to use his bull killing blows....."

Which is just more of you expressing your opinions, not facts. I stated names, dates and facts, which are the only real details that matter. Every opinion about what he might and might not have been are just speculation and conjecture, not details. No one stated that he was more than a man. His accomplishments were very real and attainable with his kind of work ethic. And this man was alive until 1994 and respected by every martial artist that new him and knew of him. That was during the UFC period. No one in the world questioned the level of his power or prowess then because he had proven himself countless times. No one who fought him said afterwards that his power or prowess was exaggerated, and those men were defeated with one punch.

Pay attention to this detail: Its always men who never fought him or people like him who have mostly negative to say. Go figure.

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Thai Bri

You haven't provided any details, only the usual perverse hero worship.

Go figure.

Jiu-fu fighter

From what I have seen ( in videos), have heard ( from other martial artists ), have read ( in magazines, online..etc.. )

I have to say that Mas oyama was an extraordinary fighter and i strongly agree with Uke, and hell just my opinion based on what I have seen, I think he would have done awesome in todays MMA.

my two cents,

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Uke

Of course he would have, Jiu-fu fighter. Thai Bri is just one of the many martial art agnostics that believes nothing is true until he himself sees it on YouTube.

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Garland

Name anyone on the MMA circuit who has a bigger work ethic than monsters like Kimura and Oyama.
Kimura was a top-notch judoka, and has been cited as the best fighter Japan ever produced. Oyama was an intense motherfucker that killed bulls, beat his body into a weapon in solitude, killed somebody with a single punch, and turned karate into something that rivaled muay thai for supremecy in the stand up arena...and I'm a muay thai guy.

Are people like Muhammed Ali, Jack Johnson, Karl Gotch, or Kael Sanderson all being wrongly put on pedestals? NO. They accomplished some pretty fucking amazing shit. Is saying Michael Jordan was/is the best baller in the world bullshit too? Unreasonable hero worship?

What is this..."oh, they ain't shit" talk? It's like assholes who bash Bruce Lee. The fact of the matter with Sigung Lee is that it doesn't matter if he had a single real fight in his lifetime (which he did)...the point is he left a lasting legacy and furthered the martial arts more than any body ever has with the exemption of Boddhidarma and a few Shaolin monks.
It's like JKDguy bashing fucking Helio Gracie, for godsake...look at what BJJ has done to the world of martial arts and combat sports...and look at the people Helio did fight.

WHO do you guys think you fucking are? I mean...I like you Bri, you bring your opinion, which I often value, to the table...but...c'mon man. These guys were "heros" in the sense that they furthered their field and their sports. They were pioneers and originals, and they worked under shittier conditions, and they had a MUCH stronger work ethic.

Even if what you say was true, that these fighters wouldn't hold their own in a modern ring fight (which is complete bullshit) these guys would STILL be superior based on their passion, their obsessive work ethic, and their sheer will and spirit. Who are you people to spit on their legacies?

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jubaji

The line between admiring someone and pretty sickening hero-worship is a fine and precarious one.

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Garland

Define your constructs...what do you mean by hero-worshipping?
Were these men not pioneers and legends in their fields? Aren't they admirable? Don't some of their characteristics make them suitable role models (granted their not saints)? Aren't their work ethic and their accomplishments something to aspire to?

Do you not have any personal "heros"? Did you growing up?
Isn't their somebody, or a group of people who you admire for something and want to strive to be like?

IF it's sickening...we just passed a big holiday where billions of people mourned the loss of their hero, whom they worship...most on a weekly basis. Are those people sickening?

What about people in a particular type of work, who model themselves or look up to a predecessor?

You guys are being too vague. So far I don't see anyone praying to Oyama or Kimura on this thread, nor do I think anyone has a shrine set up all "swimfan"-esque.

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Uke

Its the men who have never aspired to work hard enough to achieve that level of excellence that would mistake admiration as worship.

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Uke

I admire Tim Deboom, back to back Iron Man champion, but I don't worship him.

I admire Lance Armstrong, seven consecutive time Tour de France Champion, but I don't worship him.

I admire Jack Johnson, who had fought for 26 rounds for the world title, but I don't worship him.

I admire Masahiko Kimura, who completed the two hundred man throwing, won 3 consecutive All Japan Championships, and threw Helio Gracie like a rag doll, almost choking him unconscious before breaking his arm in route to a win, but I don't worship him.

I admire Mas Oyama, who completed the 300 man kumite, fought undefeated in 270 no holds barred matches in which none lasted 3 minutes, fought bulls and could kill man with one punch, but I don't worship him.

How do you reason with men who think that too much admiration for these men is worship?

You don't.

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jubaji

I mean going beyond recognizing a person's accomplishments or even attempting to follow their example and emulate them to invoking their name like some kind of magic talisman, using them as an example of some kind of super-human that justifies any claim you could not otherwise, and generally hugging the nut of anyone who was not a saint, national leader, or champion of something that bettered humanity.

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