Mike Brewer

I see.

When, pray tell, is the average guy going to be carrying around a sword length stick? Wouldn't something less obtrusive be, well, less obtrusive?

nathan rd

At a parade in October last year a man was arrested in Oklahoma City for carrying two swords underneath his jacket. Click here for article. The short article is underneath the picture of the dancing girls.

Mike Brewer

I stand corrected. That one instance should revitalize the study of archaic and outdated fighting methods dependent upon hard-to-conceal weapons that almost no one owns.

Or not.

Tom Yum

I think its more of a hobby, Mike. People have different preferences.

Some folks like to ride horse, bicylce, rollerblade or jog for fun rather than as an efficient form of transportation. They might be able to get out of their neighborhoods, pick up a thing or two at the store and make it back home - not nearly as capable or efficient form of transport as car or bus, but they do it because its a hobby and they get some benefit out of it.

I've seen people in different cities actually do all of their grociery shopping and bring it home on their bike, even though they could buy a car or ride a bus.

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Mike Brewer

Absolutely, Tom. It's fun to do those kinds of things. I don't know if you got a chance to read the thread on Japanese Sword Arts, but I recently took up Iaido as a way to relax and meditate and I like it. In that arena, it serves a purpose, and it has real value.

But it isn't practical. Not by a looooong shot.

My gripe (and it's not even really that, since I don't care one way or another) is that the art IS NOT a self-defense art. It uses archaic methods and tools, is steeped in ritual, and emphasizes no person to person training. This is just a matter of people trying to make what they like fit what they need. If you're looking for self-defense, look at self-defense arts. Not at a system that was expressly designed to preserve an ancient tradition after it was outlawed. And while studying the methods for quickly drawing a katana, making a cut, and then putting it away or maybe studying how to fight another person weilding a bamboo version of the same, wrapped in thousand dollar armor might make a person a little more capable of reacting to specific attacks, that hardly means it's a good way to go in terms of preparing for real-world attacks.

To borrow your analogy, the guy on the bike enjoys it, and it works. But if he got a call that his wife was dying at home, I've got real money that guy jumps in a cab and says "Step on it!"

When it matters, don't try to convince yourself that the bike has you covered. Ride because it's fun, and because you like that brand of exercise, but please, for the love of God, don't try to tell the guys who drive ambulances and fire trucks that a bike will get them to their respective emergencies just as well.

I know you have it in perspective Tom. The above is not meant to be argumentative, it's just that your question allowed me to expand in that direction.

Tom Yum

I agree, Mike. As I mentioned earlier, some people will use less efficient forms of transportation most of the time, because they enjoy it and probably because they have the time to do so.

The guys who drive ambulances and fire trucks have a very specific, job that requires getting from point A to point B in the shortest amount of time. That being said, they need motor vehicles because they move faster. The most efficient form of transport may not be the most practical in all environments or situations though.

For example, police officers ride bicycles and horses on duty in environments that cars cannot efficiently maneuver in - in places like amusement parks or areas where there are alot of people, obstacles or narrow passageways. These forms of transportation allow relatively quick and mobile transportation in such an environment although they are not as efficient as an automobile.

The sword is a bulky, old fashioned weapon that you'll almost never see anywhere and I'd put my money on the firearm over it in most situations but I'd hate to be at the end of a sword handled by an effective swordsman even with another edged or blunt weapon in hand - a sword could make a decent self-defense weapon in the privacy of one's own home in such hands, as exotic as it might seem.

As a street weapon? Obviously not.

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Tant01

Since carrying a sword is illegal here in Ca. it's fairly a non issue. However I stand by the idea that the principles of many fencing styles will enhance your performance in close conflict...

Anyone who learns to PARRY and step off the line of attack can realize the practical application of fencing principles...

But don't take my word for anything.

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While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties.

T. Shidachi, 1892

Mike Brewer

Tanto, I don't think anyone's disputing that. All I'm saying is that if you want to learn to parry and move off line, there are lots and lots of arts out there that will teach them even better, and they'll teach them in conjuction with a whole litany of other fight-applicable skills. If fighting is really the aim, people are better served learning a fighting art. If enjoyment is the aim, then whatever. But it doesn't make sense to go off and learn a whole art just to drag out a few cherry picked concepts that can be found all over the place, already distilled and custom tailored to fighitng with modern weapons and tools. To reiterate:

I think sword arts have tons of value, across a whole broad spectrum of areas. I just don't think they are practical for self-defense.

Besides - even if it was legal to carry a sword, don't you suppose it'd be a bit cumbersome and odd-looking? Imagine trying to sit down to a meal at a local restaurant ... Shit. Freaking sword's in the way...

Tant01

Hehehehehe.... Just poking fun at the overall significance of the thread itself.

Like any other skill (butcher, baker, candle stick maker) we usually get out of it what we put into it. When we minimize a skill set to the point that a sword is perfectly useless it has been confined into oblivion.

A sword is such a symbolic thing... It reminds me that life is one mistake from over. A breath away lies our own oblivion.

In THAT respect there are few arts that compare...I consider most stick/ knife arts in the same regard. Kali, arnis, eskrima, silat...

Not Japanese so much as weapon based but similar one and all. I'd like to see more folks practice the sword like exercises and footwork. The grappling is a whole NEW game with a blade, ya know? OR is it an OLD game???

Personally I could find more use in a length of rope than a sword...

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While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties.

T. Shidachi, 1892

Mike Brewer

Or a length of barrel...

sojobow

I've read half the responses posted so far (in this thread) and I admit that your answers are really basic and come very close to true rationality. The basic point you make regarding not wasting ones time with Sword Arts and sticking to and training in a fighting art is the efficient path. I do, somewhat, disagree.

My own disagreement is based on the question I've been trying to answer myself and anyone in a martial arts should think on: What is the purpose of "The (A) Book of Five Rings"? How important is it to "know the ways of others" or "know the ways ('professions') of others?"

If you believe that the object of life, in general, is to "Win", then you have no problem investing time and energy in just about every avenue that would assist you "overcomming Man."

True, most of the Sword Arts associated with Kendo do seem in the area of a Hobby rather than a method of warfare, however, think on the point that an enemy TODAY, invades your home and draws a Sword? My first thought might be: better to have knowledge of his offense as you must now overcome him - or flee.

Truth is, regardless of Man's weapons proposed to you, you must still fight the Man and not his weapons.

Same thought would apply to someone testing for a highter wage: you must overcome the person that will make the decision. You might want to KNOW him and his Ways.

sojobow

Question: Would you carry your Gun to Church? But I come real close to agreement. When age, heath etc start ripping your body and you just can't do that spinning-reverse-flying back kick, just shoot him.

Mike Brewer

If I went to church, I would. I would (and do) carry just about everywhere it is legal to do so. In places where it isn't legal, I do all I can to take appropriate measures so that I will never have to depend solely on my wits and empty hands in the event I have to face someone with no regard for the law.

I could not agree more that it is the man and not the tools that must be overcome. But it is absolutely foolish and unrealistic to assume that the tools make no difference. I am far more apt to consider a 10 year old with a hand grenade "dangerous" than I am a businessman with a bag of gummy bears, for example. The tools do indeed matter. So if that's the case, then a reasonable strategist/tactician discovers that while beating the man may negate the weapon, it's far better and more inclusive to be a superior man WITH superior weapons.

When being a superior man is enough, so be it. When wits and mindset and experience can cover your bets, fine. But when they can't, I'm not the kind of person who is willing to be found wanting. Spiritualists and philosophers emphasize the need for men to better themselves and no worry about the tools they use. But while I understand philosophy, I'm a pragmatist. I'd rather develop my mind, my character, my attitude, and my overall quality as a man and warrior while still developing my ability to put a solid heavy-caliber double-tap in between a pair of eyes at ten paces.

I have no use - never have - for the "either/or" mindset. It never has to be "man or weapon." You can (and arguably should) make sure your enemies have to deal with both a superior man AND superior firepower.

sojobow

Then we basically agree. If a person is interested in taking a few lessons in the Way of the Sword, people should not deter them whatsoever. The weapon you or I might feel is older and somewhat useless today, still has value and any warrior must know something about it. Any person today, with just a minimal knowledge of the Sword, is an extremely dangerous person and by him or her knowing the Swords edge, also means or infers that this person just might also know a little more than just the Sword.

Quick aside. I recently watched a PBS show regarding the Japanese invasion of the American Naval Fleet in Hawaii December 7th, 1942. Interesting to note that a couple of the Japanese pilots had Samurai Swords with them in their cockpits?????????? Now, the pilots were not about to open the window and throw the Sword at some vessel, but it was important to them to have this Katana with them. Think there may have been some type of conflict between these pilots and the Japanese Government/Militay once it was noted this "connection" between the Militay and the "Nuevo Samurai".

Stating this, I'd think the American War Colleges must have studied why these pilots carried these Katana. You or I wouldn't know or have any clue unless we've had some experience studying the way of the Sword.

Again, you and I agree on just about everything so far. All I'd add is that we do not deter anyone from taking up a martial art that we might think is of no use. Remember, well over 90 percent of humans cannot defend themselves today and there are very few warriors left. If studying Kendo will get them in the mindset of martial arts, we never know how their interest will expand from there. Besides, how many Swords do own stashed away in your bedroom?

Mike Brewer

Where does that statistic come from? I think that's a grossly inaccurate estimate. I think a majority of people can defend themselves just fine, as evidenced by the fact that majortiy of people will survive to within a few years on either side of their life expectancy.

As for swords in my room? I just have two. I bought them both when I took up Iaido recently. One for practice and cutting in class, and one because I wanted a sword that actually fit me, no matter how obscenely long the class thought it was.

But that's the thing. I don't see any real combative application in Iaido, nor does the instructor of the class. HE calls it a method of historical preservation, not innovation or realism. If I'm being entirely honest, I find it tdious and irritating in the extreme to have to put on special clothes to train in, and the fighter in me is always screaming in the background "That's not realistic at all!!" But I don't do that stuff for the "martial" benefits. I do it as a form of meditation. That's all I really think it's good for.