The Ultimate in Martial Arts

jules · 10-17-2003, 01:58 AM

what's the reason behind it in Karate? Won't you wnat to have your hands up all the time?

**Thai Bri** · 10-17-2003, 08:24 AM

Power comes from the hip in Karate, so they figure that the fist should come from the hip too. I actually think that it can be quite useful to strike from the hip, if striking in a pre-emptive manner i.e. hitting him first as he is threatening you. Your hand can come under his line of vision and smack him on the button.

But to stick with it through the non-sensical "basics" and katas? Nah. Thats just rigid and silly.

Nit · 10-17-2003, 09:19 AM

Yeah, the principle is explaine through physics...

basically for more power in a punch you need to use all your muscles to increase speed, you also use rotational energy (twist your hand / wrist just before impact).

the idea is that you throw a punch and withdraw the other arm, thus giving maximum acceleration possibility for the second / third punch.

however this is just a concept of Karate, and to use pure junzuki in a sparring match is to have your head caved in by a small kitten...

the way in which it is used it to train you into using your hips to rotate and so maximise the power of your strike / defense... so it become natural when you fight to rotate the hips, regardless of if you have withdrawn your arm or not.

at least thats what I think... I'm sure others will correct me if I am wrong (please) .

jules · 10-17-2003, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Power comes from the hip in Karate..

Power comes from the hip in boxing and MT also but they don't put their hands near their hips...

**Thai Bri** · 10-17-2003, 08:36 PM

I know. Boxers and MT Fighters didn't try to be clever and scientific like Karate tried to (and failed).

Nit - the concept of pulling the other hand back actually decreases your power. Think about it. Force = mass x acceleration. The more bodyweight behind the punch (i.e. mass) the more power potential you have.

But by pulling your other arm (and shoulder) back, you are taking alot of your mass out of the equation.

Shukokai developed the "Double Hip" movement. One of its qualities is that you pretend your lead shoulder, hip and foot are the hinge of a door. Your whole body moves around this axis, instead of an imaginary axis running through the centre of your head (like when you pull the lead arm back).

This is quite powerful in comparison.

eXcessiveForce · 10-17-2003, 08:51 PM

it has to do with newton's laws of motion. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

So if you do not want to over rotate you can compensate by retraction or the opposite arm and yet still use rotations force of the hips.

**Thai Bri** · 10-17-2003, 11:53 PM

Nah. Your stance stops you "over rotating", i.e. falling over.

Tell me where else you see this withdrawing type of action. Tennis? Baseball? Boxing?

eXcessiveForce · 10-18-2003, 12:01 AM

running

**Thai Bri** · 10-18-2003, 12:07 AM

Good answer.

I kind of hinted at a striking action though......... Somehow I thought that was more relevant. I don't know why.

eXcessiveForce · 10-18-2003, 12:16 AM

some baseball pitchers do a similar action as well.

**Thai Bri** · 10-18-2003, 01:00 AM

I guess people can make their own minds up.

They can punch the way Thai Boxers and Western Boxers have proven effective in the ring, time and time again. Or they can emulate the "Masters" that get their black belts punching at thin air and making half assed, inaccurate and unintelligible references to "scienctific theories".

A difficult one, that..........

eXcessiveForce · 10-18-2003, 01:16 AM

I'm not supporting it. I just told you what the belief is. And you asked me for examples. I think the do it for Javlin throwing, and discus and shot put.

Boxer do a similar motion just a shortened form. Hands retract to the gaurd after a punch is executed and another punch is being thrown.

We use "boxing" styles punches so i'm not trying to sell you on the idea

**Thai Bri** · 10-18-2003, 02:18 AM

You plainly don't understand the fact that many Karate-Ka move as if they have a fulcrum going down through the top of their heads. As one shoulder goes forwards, the other goes back. That is not the same as mere hand movement.

Doesn't the fact you are disagreeing with me not even give you a hint that you are wrong?

eXcessiveForce · 10-18-2003, 03:04 AM

no the fact that I am agreeing with you might though.

I was just explaining the reasoning behind the whole hand on hip/ retraction idea. I am not debating it's effectiveness just stating the reasoning.

brokenelbow · 10-18-2003, 12:13 PM

I'm thinking the entire hand on hip thing is a great way to teach that power comes from the hip. The problem is I don't see many karate folk using the hip, they twist from the shoulder but the hips remain mostly in place. So much bad technique is being passed on because instructors didn't understand the ideas behind the techniques.

10-17-2003, 01:58 AM	#1 (permalink)
jules Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 474 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	the fists at the waist thing... what's the reason behind it in Karate? Won't you wnat to have your hands up all the time?

10-17-2003, 09:19 AM	#3 (permalink)
Nit Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: On the heads of clean people Posts: 239 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yeah, the principle is explaine through physics... basically for more power in a punch you need to use all your muscles to increase speed, you also use rotational energy (twist your hand / wrist just before impact). the idea is that you throw a punch and withdraw the other arm, thus giving maximum acceleration possibility for the second / third punch. however this is just a concept of Karate, and to use pure junzuki in a sparring match is to have your head caved in by a small kitten... the way in which it is used it to train you into using your hips to rotate and so maximise the power of your strike / defense... so it become natural when you fight to rotate the hips, regardless of if you have withdrawn your arm or not. at least thats what I think... I'm sure others will correct me if I am wrong (please) . __________________ Nit

10-17-2003, 08:51 PM	#6 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,991 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	it has to do with newton's laws of motion. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So if you do not want to over rotate you can compensate by retraction or the opposite arm and yet still use rotations force of the hips. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive. www.b-prime.com A success and achievement community

10-18-2003, 12:01 AM	#8 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,991 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	running __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive. www.b-prime.com A success and achievement community

10-18-2003, 12:16 AM	#10 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,991 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	some baseball pitchers do a similar action as well. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive. www.b-prime.com A success and achievement community

10-17-2003, 08:24 AM	#2 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,413 Groans: 1 Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts	Power comes from the hip in Karate, so they figure that the fist should come from the hip too. I actually think that it can be quite useful to strike from the hip, if striking in a pre-emptive manner i.e. hitting him first as he is threatening you. Your hand can come under his line of vision and smack him on the button. But to stick with it through the non-sensical "basics" and katas? Nah. Thats just rigid and silly.

10-17-2003, 08:36 PM	#5 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,413 Groans: 1 Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts	I know. Boxers and MT Fighters didn't try to be clever and scientific like Karate tried to (and failed). Nit - the concept of pulling the other hand back actually decreases your power. Think about it. Force = mass x acceleration. The more bodyweight behind the punch (i.e. mass) the more power potential you have. But by pulling your other arm (and shoulder) back, you are taking alot of your mass out of the equation. Shukokai developed the "Double Hip" movement. One of its qualities is that you pretend your lead shoulder, hip and foot are the hinge of a door. Your whole body moves around this axis, instead of an imaginary axis running through the centre of your head (like when you pull the lead arm back). This is quite powerful in comparison.

10-17-2003, 11:53 PM	#7 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,413 Groans: 1 Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts	Nah. Your stance stops you "over rotating", i.e. falling over. Tell me where else you see this withdrawing type of action. Tennis? Baseball? Boxing?

10-18-2003, 12:07 AM	#9 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,413 Groans: 1 Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts	Good answer. I kind of hinted at a striking action though......... Somehow I thought that was more relevant. I don't know why.

10-18-2003, 01:00 AM	#11 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,413 Groans: 1 Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts	I guess people can make their own minds up. They can punch the way Thai Boxers and Western Boxers have proven effective in the ring, time and time again. Or they can emulate the "Masters" that get their black belts punching at thin air and making half assed, inaccurate and unintelligible references to "scienctific theories". A difficult one, that..........

10-18-2003, 01:16 AM	#12 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,991 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	I'm not supporting it. I just told you what the belief is. And you asked me for examples. I think the do it for Javlin throwing, and discus and shot put. Boxer do a similar motion just a shortened form. Hands retract to the gaurd after a punch is executed and another punch is being thrown. We use "boxing" styles punches so i'm not trying to sell you on the idea __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive. www.b-prime.com A success and achievement community

10-18-2003, 02:18 AM	#13 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,413 Groans: 1 Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts	You plainly don't understand the fact that many Karate-Ka move as if they have a fulcrum going down through the top of their heads. As one shoulder goes forwards, the other goes back. That is not the same as mere hand movement. Doesn't the fact you are disagreeing with me not even give you a hint that you are wrong?

10-18-2003, 03:04 AM	#14 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,991 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	no the fact that I am agreeing with you might though. I was just explaining the reasoning behind the whole hand on hip/ retraction idea. I am not debating it's effectiveness just stating the reasoning. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive. www.b-prime.com A success and achievement community

10-18-2003, 12:13 PM	#15 (permalink)
brokenelbow Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 520 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm thinking the entire hand on hip thing is a great way to teach that power comes from the hip. The problem is I don't see many karate folk using the hip, they twist from the shoulder but the hips remain mostly in place. So much bad technique is being passed on because instructors didn't understand the ideas behind the techniques. __________________ The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach. Damnit... it made sense when it was running through my head. DM

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread: