Judo throws on street without a gi........

**michaelarsanis** · 11-04-2003, 10:50 AM

.......I wanted to respond to Badger's question on another thread but it is closed so I am putting it here.

Most judo throws can be done easily without a gi on. What you need to do is move in a little closer and clinch with the person. I like to overhook one arm and underhook the other. From this position, you now have his arms tied up and he cannot punch or elbow you. He is too close to kick you. About all he can do is knee you. If you use the judo principle of Kazushi (off balancing your opponent) by moving in a circular or lateral way, this will help keep him off balance which makes it difficult for him to knee you effectively and it also sets him up for an easy takedown!

In using judo for the street, like ANY grappling art, you will have to move in QUICKLY to avoid being hit and then you can take him down. You might even have to take a shot or two to get in if the guy knows how to box or kickbox. But the average person know nothing about fighting so judo will carry you through most situations. It is suggested though that you crosstrain in a striking art to make yourself more complete.

I like Muay Thai because it is simple and very powerful. In the clinch, you can soften someone up with some knees or elbows before you take him down. Also, the low leg kicks can throw someone off balance which cause them to instinctively drop their hands thereby allowing you to move in on them much more safely.

Here is a quote from "One Sword" on that same thread:--------"It is pretty easy to do a few of the throws without a gi, but if your assailant isn't a judo-ka(most likely scenario), you are not going to have a very proficient ability in self defence. Try to find some kick boxers to attack you in pads while you try to throw and they resist. It is not likely. Judo might help, but it is as much of a sport as western boxing."---------

The above is simply not true. It sounds like One Sword is very biased towards kickboxers and dismisses judo and even boxing as poor methods of self defense. I assume by his tone that kickboxing is what he likes. However, kickboxing is neither the be all end all of fighting either. What if that leg kick doesn't stop the guy and he moves in on you and outboxes you or grabs you and you end up in a wrestling match? And if the guy KNOWS how to grapple and can move in on you, then your REALLY screwed. The Gracies already proved that.

**BadgerFu57** · 11-04-2003, 12:59 PM

Yeah he is a dotard. Boxing and Judo are bad business to be fighting against.

**MuayThaiFighter** · 11-11-2003, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by michaelarsanis
.......I wanted to respond to Badger's question on another thread but it is closed so I am putting it here.

Most judo throws can be done easily without a gi on. What you need to do is move in a little closer and clinch with the person. I like to overhook one arm and underhook the other. From this position, you now have his arms tied up and he cannot punch or elbow you. He is too close to kick you. About all he can do is knee you. If you use the judo principle of Kazushi (off balancing your opponent) by moving in a circular or lateral way, this will help keep him off balance which makes it difficult for him to knee you effectively and it also sets him up for an easy takedown!

In using judo for the street, like ANY grappling art, you will have to move in QUICKLY to avoid being hit and then you can take him down. You might even have to take a shot or two to get in if the guy knows how to box or kickbox. But the average person know nothing about fighting so judo will carry you through most situations. It is suggested though that you crosstrain in a striking art to make yourself more complete.

I like Muay Thai because it is simple and very powerful. In the clinch, you can soften someone up with some knees or elbows before you take him down. Also, the low leg kicks can throw someone off balance which cause them to instinctively drop their hands thereby allowing you to move in on them much more safely.

Here is a quote from "One Sword" on that same thread:--------"It is pretty easy to do a few of the throws without a gi, but if your assailant isn't a judo-ka(most likely scenario), you are not going to have a very proficient ability in self defence. Try to find some kick boxers to attack you in pads while you try to throw and they resist. It is not likely. Judo might help, but it is as much of a sport as western boxing."---------

The above is simply not true. It sounds like One Sword is very biased towards kickboxers and dismisses judo and even boxing as poor methods of self defense. I assume by his tone that kickboxing is what he likes. However, kickboxing is neither the be all end all of fighting either. What if that leg kick doesn't stop the guy and he moves in on you and outboxes you or grabs you and you end up in a wrestling match? And if the guy KNOWS how to grapple and can move in on you, then your REALLY screwed. The Gracies already proved that.

I agree to some extent.

I would say that Muay Thai is the be all end all of fighting if fighting against another stand up fighter but overall it is important to know just as much grappling as you yourself stated.

In my honest opinion Judo is useless on its own but very effective with Muay Thai.

Coming in to the Muay Thai clinche would be perfect time for using a judo throw or take down provided you can avoid the knees and provided you are lucky enough to not to get kicked or punched on your way in to grappling in first place,of course if you know both Muay Thai and Judo then you have nothing to worry about.

"What if that leg kick doesn't stop the guy and he moves in on you and outboxes you or grabs you and you end up in a wrestling match? And if the guy KNOWS how to grapple and can move in on you, then your REALLY screwed. The Gracies already proved that. "

"IF" is the correct word.Well I could also say what if the grappler person doesn't know stand up and doesn't know how to block the kick then he too can be screwed when trying to go in for take down,right?

Gracies may have proved that a kickboxer can be taken down if the kick doesn't stop the grappler from moving in but Gracies are experts and even then that isn't always true.It can go either way.

Not everyone is an expert in grappling or an expert in kickboxing. The average person against another average person would find it hard if not impossible for some one to take down a person throwing multiple punches and kicks.

**kempo_jujutsu** · 11-11-2003, 11:11 AM

interesting to note that judo comes from jujutsu (as im sure you all know) but in jujutsu most of those same throws are done completely different than what you see in judo.
judo is meant to be safer than jujutsu.
in traditional jujutsu throws are intended to make your opponent land in very awkward positions, possibly breaking bones when they land, without relying on the gi to throw them.
i think judo ka and anyone else interested in this...would do well to train throwing with a good jujutsu instructor, if nothing else to get another point of view on the subject.

**michaelarsanis** · 11-17-2003, 12:59 PM

".....but in jujutsu most of those same throws are done completely different than what you see in judo......"

Thats a bunch of malarky. The throws are the same. Traditional jujitsu does have additional throws though.

"....in traditional jujutsu throws are intended to make your opponent land in very awkward positions, possibly breaking bones when they land, without relying on the gi to throw them...."

Every jujitsu class I've seen or taken practices throws with a gi on - just like Judo. But the point is moot anyway because as already explained above, a gi isn't necessary.

"...i think judo ka and anyone else interested in this...would do well to train throwing with a good jujutsu instructor, if nothing else to get another point of view on the subject...."

That WOULD be good so that you can learn a few other "dirty" techniques not allowed in Judo. At the same time, every instructor or student in traditional jujitsu would be well served to take Judo and learn what it actually feels like to spar or fight an uncooperative person.

Most traditional jujitsu classes are very little contact if any.
Kinda like learning to box without stepping in the ring. ( It don't work too well.)

**kempo_jujutsu** · 11-17-2003, 04:10 PM

the throws are NOT done exactly the same in 'TRADITIONAL' jujutsu....im talking about old styles like yoshin ryu, takeuchi ryu, tenjin shinyo ryu.... the throws are quite different in entry method, and delivery as well as having more variations.
yes they throw with a gi on...but they dont GRAB THE GI to effect the throw was my point...in other words they dont RELY on the gi.
if they do they are probably teaching judo throws and calling it jujutsu, which is what i think most modern jujutsu schools do, not that it is a bad thing.
every jujutus class you have been in...was probably not 'traditional' jujutsu, more likely it was gendai, not really traditional in a strict sense of the word.
i agree jujutsuka should train in judo as well.