Kenpo Over Kickboxing?

[HungryWolf21]

This memory just crossed over my mind as I continue to mull through the work day. During this past summer, I sparred a few rounds with some amateur kickboxers (they practiced Western Kickboxing, not Thai Boxing). They were pretty good at kicking (one of them had a front kick from hell!!), but they all had great hands and movement skills. Several punches to the head, a bloody nose, and 10 rounds later we retired for the night. During our post sparring conversation, I relayed to them how I got into full contact kickboxing. I told them about my experience in Taekwondo and how a unfortunate street brawl forced me to re-evaluate my training methods. I told them that I strayed away from the “traditional” arts for the past couple of years and have focused my training on boxing and grappling. Then one of the people I sparred with said something that caught me completely off guard. He said that the kickboxing was good, but that it was better to use Kenpo or something else for the street. Could it be that he has no idea how the “traditional” arts are trained or is it that he knows that full contact kickboxing may actually give one the timing and attributes that are necessary to be able to use the techniques from “traditional” arts?

[Chopstix]

hey wolf, how has your holiday been? we tend to always make the mistake of confusing the actual styles and systems of martial arts with the training methods and the practitioners that practice them and represent them.. what im getting at is the old cliched "its the person not the style" arguement. but this is how i see it.. its not the style, its the degree of contact and seriousness that the person that is training in it trains. we are too used to asosciating "traditional" arts with the mcdojos of tae kwon do and kenpo
that we are so used to seeing.. but in reality, that is so far from tradition as you can go.. the fighters that actually had to use these arts didnt train like they do today in the same arts, they trained hardcore, because they needed it and actually used it.. do you think ed parker, emperado, or al dacascos were ever pushovers? theyve had a lot of street fighting experience and full contact fighting experience, so they know how to put there arts into use... in the same line, most instructors never have gone full contact with their arts, so they arent good at using them in full contact situations. its just like kickboxing, how many "kickboxing" gyms do you see that only do some tae bo variation, not mkaing contact but just doing the movements and stuff like that? technically, its kickboxing that there doing, there just not doing full contact, so it will be useless to them in a fight..

p.s sorry for the long windedness of my post man.. hope i was of some help!

[Evilution]

I gotta agree with chopstix, it's more about the way a person trains than anything. Is the way they train realistic? Is it well rounded? Will it prepare them for any combat situation or only one or two. Do they train full resistance and full contact? These questions are more important than what style is better.

[phillyman]

Hungry i just wanted to know what happened in the fight you had that changed your thinking. Thanks

[Maxximus]

I don't care what kind of stories traditionalists might tell about "back in the day of the samurai, karate was all full contact..." etc etc. The truth of the matter is that most of these traditional styles never had the same level of full contact training that we see today until they encountered styles such as boxing, muay thai, etc. I'm not saying that there is no value in traditional arts (there were definitely some karate and Gung fu bada$$es through history) but we should see things for what they are and take the truth as it is. I've worked with some karate guys who train with extreme dedication in strictly traditional karate do and although they have great attributes and are sometimes pretty damn fast, they simply don't know how to move that well or fight full out with most of their techniques. They seem to be able to do lots of stuff in traditional open hand play fighting, but once you glove up and start to hit full speed and with full intent, most of their karate seems to crumble before your eyes. Sometimes you can't even risk giving them a good headshot because they are very rigid and really aren't trained properly in how to cover or take headshots.

On the other hand, I've also worked with a couple pretty decent kenpo guys but the way they fight has a whole lot to do with kickboxing and very little to do with kenpo karate. This one guy took me through some of his basic training drills, and it was a bunch of boxing drills and kickboxing/JKD-esque footwork. The only time I saw anything that one could truly call kenpo, it was watching him do katas. When it came down to freestyle sparring, I couldn't pinpoint anything he did as uniquely kenpo. I see guys from traditional karate adopting modern training methods and coming out as pretty decent strikers, but when it comes down to it, they are basically becoming kickboxers. Can you really say that they are karate fighters? I think that a lot of them want to cling onto the name of karate because of their pride and long time devotion, but in reality they are simply creating a misconception by calling themselves "traditional karate fighters". Perhaps they can call themselves kickboxers with a karate influence, but they cannot credit all of their skills to traditional karate.

[HungryWolf21]

Me and two other friends got in a late night brawl with 6 other people (long story, don't ask how we managed to get ourselves in that situation). The fight was nothing like what I trained for. I was trying to pull people off one of my friends, all while getting pushed around and trying to avoid taking blows that could have come from any direction. I ended up being the only one taken to the ground. I defended myself pretty well while I was grounded, taking a kick to the leg and punching one guy standiing over me in the nuts. I was pulled off the ground by one of the bigger guys, and we both "agreed" that the fight was over (that's because my friends were out of there, so there was no longer a reason for me to fight). So, I decided that I needed to learn to defend myself better in the clinch (were most of the fight took place) and on the ground.

[Chad W. Getz]

Hungrywolf21, we do 1 on two and 1 on 3 sometimes. It really puts it into perspective when you actually have guys swinging at you. I found that damn, sometimes you get really close to the guys and swings, and can't believe you didn't get hit. Heart, mind, and balls. You should try it a few times, it's pretty fun. Alot of cardio. Alot of jabbing, zoning, moving, clinching, pushing, zoning, pulling, moving, punching. Basically everything you got. I think the trick is to try and be comfortable in the situation as much as possible. Good thing for Macho headgear and facecage, we can train for these types of situations. Oh, one thing that I really like in multiple, and single, confrontations is the straight blast-doesn't matter how you do it, just as long as you train it and make it work.

[kenpo-power]

What you were told was for good reason. American Kenpo, not Japanese Kempo is a very good system to learn if you want to gain some self defense knowledge. American Kenpo is not a traditional style as stated, but a scientific style of street self defense. In Kenpo one learns how to strike from practically any angle, with varying degrees of force to meet to the attack. The hand speed is incredible and the way Kenpoists train is very different from the so called traditional styles such as TKD. As your buddy Chopstixs says in a later post, Kenpo and TKD belong to a chain of Mcdojos
this is just silly. There is a reason that there have been an influx of Kenpo schools turning up... It works. Kenpo is a difficult system to master, but the outcome is worth the wait of many years of hard work. If you like Ju-jitsu kenpo is a good striking art to practice, as Kenpo and Ju-jitsu go hand in hand(do some research)as does Chin na . Don't let a bad experience turn you away from a striking art. I myself don't like TKD, but there have been many good fighters that have trained in that style. Also in my opinion BJJ should also be on the list of Mcdojo schools in Chopstix wants to be realistic. Everywhere you turn all you see is BJJ, there is nothing wrong with that, in fact it is a great trend(it brings people into the dojo) But don't slam another style just because there is competiton. BJJ like Kenpo is not the answer to everyone's question. If you want to learn more about Kenpo, I suggest you look into Ed Parkers Infinite Insights Of Kenpo Vol 1-5 This will explain alot.

[Dion]

Here is one for you all to ponder over...

After noticing the word "samurai" I can not help but give another example of knowing...

Now the traditional Samurai did **NOT** resort to "full contact to resolve a conflict as is so widely believed hehehehe oh is it far from the truth...

When said that they seek freedom in the services of their master does not mean they merely go out on the masters whim and die for them in mortal combat hehehe nonono

The majority of times a samurai was determined the "winner", and don't not take "winner" literally either, by drawing his sword "first" or "quickest" and be at the ready with it at which the "slower" would submit defeat...

So now after that you tell me if those boys, who mind you dedicated their lives 100% to the "art", did not know how to fight and yet would hardly ever really meet the face of "mortal combat" ????


hehehe and the stream goes on endless ...

Freedom... knowing.. ultimate

[Chad W. Getz]

The majority of times a samurai was determined the "winner", and don't not take "winner" literally either, by drawing his sword "first" or "quickest" and be at the ready with it at which the "slower" would submit defeat...

So that would be winner by submission in a full contact setting? And if both thought they were first, would it lead to a "full contact" encounter? Would they even be "thinking" that they were "slow" and there fore submit if they were truly "free"? Wouldn't they just "be". Isn't "being" in combat involve "being" the technique that counters the draw? Why not just play tennis or golf if they weren't doing it full contact? Why not just use a shinai?

I was also under the impression by writings about and by samurai that they were men of such high "honor" that they would not submit because they had trained their mindset to accept death. I could be wrong on that part, but it is the impression that I got from some of my readings.

So now after that you tell me if those boys, who mind you dedicated their lives 100% to the "art", did not know how to fight and yet would hardly ever really meet the face of "mortal combat" ????

In this day and age, we have the opportunity that many warriors of the past did not have. The old Filipino masters became masters and so well respected and feared by participating in death matches. Now days, we have the opportunity to put ourselves in "death matches", use a fencing mask, and for the most part, take out the possibility of death. Or for empty hand, put on headgear or mask or participate in a NHB / MMA event and live to walk away in the same way as you describe the samurai "submitting", by submitting with a tap out or allowing a referee to stop the match. We are able to gain that much more experience and let us live to walk away. We can gain the experience that the masters had to face death to gain, and we have the opportunity to gain it with safety to our lives so that we can have 100 "real fight experiences" when we get into a real fight.

[Kevin]

>>So that would be winner by submission in a full contact setting? And if both thought they were first, would it lead to a "full contact" encounter? Would they even be "thinking" that they were "slow" and there fore submit if they were truly "free"? Wouldn't they just "be". Isn't "being" in combat involve "being" the technique that counters the draw? Why not just play tennis or golf if they weren't doing it full contact? Why not just use a shinai?<<

Very good Chad... you have taken the first step.
Never stop questioning. hehehe nonono.

~Kevon

[Dion]

Again Chad your answers are right there asking to be heard, in where you ask me which ultimately leads to asking yourself "why?" and so we go back to it "nature" goes on.. and again back we go onto when 2 "determined equal forces" meet then the enevitable happens... ultimate destruction and yet freedom at the same time but there I go to far again beyond perception but look back to the top of your writing and "analyze it" for a while and the again ask why they would have done all that in that first place and why in hell they are even "there" and "doing" that


**From the darkness grows that which is percieved as light but in reality it is both and yet neither... we begin to "see" but yet our eyes are still blurred... whats in the blur ?**



Don't stop there either, keep questioning or understanding or ultimately 'you' "will" never 'know'...

And pssst.. tip to all.. tell your logic to back off and let both of your minds come to be one then it will truely begin but dont let one grow arrogant of the other nor itself... and it goes...