Why don't any real JKD guys tear it up in NHB?

[Dion]

Sorry for you...

Lose the bad karma and again I enforce lose the hehe reference to styles and their individual beaties they hold...

it IS the individual that creates the beauty, the speed, the power... the so called style is merely one persons way of percieving those things and attempting to pervey them their way but again "their WAY" not one way or no way but all ways and also to note that I have not taken anything out of context sonny, I do not quote people exactly, whats the point, they already said the words I merely need to reinfornce the meaning ... don't strike until you know what your up against is all I can truely say and also dont strike unless you know yourself first...

Try training all your life along a conformed way and then go out and fight the tiger, you little one will be swallowed whole...

Heh a lot of knowledge and little understanding of that knowledge leads to such arrogance in people...

Freedom ultimate..!

[Bad Karma]

"Try training all your life along a conformed way and then go out and fight the tiger, you little one will be swallowed whole..."

Uhm, not really. I can think of a few conformed fighters, all first names beginning with the letter "R", that have created the need for conforming tigers. Weird how that worked out, huh? Predator or prey?

"Heh a lot of knowledge and little understanding of that knowledge leads to such arrogance in people..."

That was for who's benefit? After those two quoted remarks, I think I know...

Peace

[Dion]

hehehe...

Are you sure they are conforming the tiger ?
Or
Are they conforming to the tiger ?
Or
Are they doing either ?

shall we go on ?

Conform: to apply ones self to a pre-set pattern of instructions... heh do you get told to do something or tell yourself everything ?

please go on... I have plenty of that we call time...



I quote you this time word for word and there again the answer lays heh .... or does it ... thats your decision :P

"... I can think of a few conformed fighters, all first names beginning with the letter "R", that have created the need for conforming tigers ..."

Ask yourself this, did the "style" create the tiger or did the tiger create the "style" or both.... ???

"nothing makes the 'spirit' laugh harder than the plans "man" makes..."

[Twisted up]

JKD is NOT a style......at least it's founder BRUCE LEE said so. Well ya know...that's enough for me.


Nuff said about that!!!!


True vale tudo is the single closest thing to a street fight that you'll ever come to without actually getting into one.

With these rules :No biting eye gouging, fish hooking, etc. (the FOUL tactics), TRUE vale tudo is close ENOUGH for most of us.

Like Matt Thornton said, "If your only defense to BJJ is biting and eye gouges, you might as well quit martial arts TODAY and take up FIREARMS!"

Of course, everyone can believe what they want. It's a free country. You're all free to decide and follow your own path.


Good training to all!

John

[Dion]

Oh boy... the emotional grace that comes from hearing some part truth then to have it shot down from some non-truth..

I whole heartedly agree with you about the first part of what you wrote John...

BUT...

You shot it down when you took it out of context by saying the bit about if your defence to something is biting and gouging then turn to firearms.. yeh yeh not exact...

Think about this then... does a dog go and get a gun to shoot you with ? ... no it does not, it instead uses what it has available to it and uses it to its fullest advantage.... it WILL 'bite' you and it WILL claw at you and it WILL shake its head with every muscle in it in order to make that bite count ... when the dog goes off, it does not think about whats fair and what the rules are, instead it thinks about one thing and one thing only ... preservation of self... if it did think of something else it or gets distracted then it goes down and goes down hard cause its opponent feels the weakness and strikes harder because it knows it has the advantage now but then the other may be shocked by the onset harder bite and strike back even harder again because of self preservation...

It is not until after the fight has finnished does the dog worry about something else eg what injuries it sustained etc and also the dog does not relax until 'after' the combat and then it is still ready for something else to happen in case it gets hurt again....

it is not until the dog gives into its own self does it in anyway fail itself... and giving up on itself usually means "death" in nature where again no rules...


OK!!! Now I can feel that some will say hey but learning martial arts isnt about "death" and I whole heartedly agree, not only do I agree but I enforce that feeling in you. Instead to learn martial arts is to find the absolute best in ones self, not half way, not almost all the way, but the WHOLE DAMN PACKAGE... nothing left out, look at your rage, look at your fears, look at your loves and cares.... face the lot and then and only then will it become apparent to you that which I have been trying to say...

I have stared at the face of death and death struck me down, but I did not back down, I lept back at it with all my might and struck it back, now death and I respect each other and neither controls the other... (several minutes DOA and lept up from the table and frightened the shit out of the nurses hehe I didnt like the idea of my body not responding like that )

Ponder that a while then think about going to get a gun...


Freedom ultimate... !

[Twisted up]

Dion, not meaning to burst your psychobabble-bubble, but please take what I say for what it is.

I say this about BJJ (and I stick to my guns here bub), if you don't know the "art" within the BJJ and you simply think that you're going to just rely on biting and eye gouging to "deal" with a BJJ practitioner....it isn't going to be enough, because there isn't any ART to it. There is nothing to back up the biting technically speaking.

For this reason I say, you may as well take up firearms because martial arts training isn't what you're interested in anyway. Otherwise, one would undertake the study of BJJ and NOT have to rely on "just" biting and eye gouging.

This is what was meant by MY statement, which happens to be correct.

Although I haven't beat around the bush because I like seeing the words that I type (or hearing myself talk) as YOU seem to Dion....but sometimes the TRUTH lies in simplicity.

Try being consise sometime Dion. You might free up some actual TRAINING TIME that way!

John

[Chad W. Getz]

Does a dog just get a gun? Can he? Why would he bite if he could get a gun? But he can't, so he will bite. No one that I know will teach a dog BJJ, or how to hold a stick, or how to throw a jab. But if one dog could learn these things, I'm sure he would. That would definetly make him top dog on my block. Or he'd have to be a plain idiot. What is this about anyway? I think John made a valid statement, taking away the technicality of "BJJ" or "shooto", or any name, but you have to train some ground system to be able to fight on the ground. Period. Whether you come up with your own principles of groundfighting or use it from shooto, BJJ(which BTW, has probably proved to be the ground system that utilizes ground principles to the most efficient), etc. the point I think he was trying to make was, "why would someone think that GJJ(a style that was supposed to be refined for actual streetfights in Brazil) why would someone think that this style would have no defense against eye gouges or bites. Eye gouging is not a "technique" that belongs to any one style, but it is a basic instinct that belongs to animals/mammals. What is the dispute, anyway? On simple terms.

[Edited by Chad W. Getz on 01-12-2001 at 12:51 PM]

[Twisted up]

Chad,

I don't believe there really was a dispute. I was simply making a comment on the subject of vale-tudo and , Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.


Chad, I agree with your statement 100%. Now, if you take someone who is good with BJJ on the ground, then teach him "street" tactics (eye gouging, etc..) he'll be someone you really wouldn't want to mess with if you didn't have to.

This is the idea BUT, this thread has somehow gotten off subject.

Dion, let me say that I mean no disrespect. I just stand firm on my comment.


This thread should DIE!

Good training!
John

[Edited by Twisted up on 01-11-2001 at 09:40 PM]

[gungfuhero]

I saw in a magazine that Vunak has a tape or series of tapes on ground fighting where he uses concepts from BJJ and Kina Mutai (biting, gouging, etc.) I think that this is a great idea because you're taking both sides of the coin into account (technical and "dirty" tactics). Personally I think that those who say that their biting and gouging will save them from JiuJitsu are as bad as the people who think that their JiuJitsu will save them from biting and eye gouging. Both may lead you to success and both can seriously injure you. I think that the logical answer is to learn to deal with both.
I'm personally opposed to biting, not because I think it's uncivilized and that I'm above it, acutally, I'm below it. My OCD would keep me from doing it most likely.

[gungfuhero]

My instructor told me about a method used in some south east asian martial arts that has ways of dealing with an opponent when they are trying to bite (Bando I think).

Have any of you tried yoga? We did it as a warm up for our kali class and it left me feeling great!

[Ryu (non-working password]

I don't post on this board often, but I do occasionally when I see something really interesting to me.
First off, philosophy is great, but in order to actually delve into it you have to understand the true nature of philosophical words, and the annoyance of pseudo-philosophy. I'm not trying to attack anyone, and I do understand where the talk of "tigers and dogs" was going, but in order to make parables like that you have to really understand every kind of whole it might have. If you present the example of "will a dog buy a gun" you can't just throw that out without some backup. It isn't a logical or intrinsically deep thought, therefore be careful of mixing pseudo-philo with the real stuff. Though I do understand where it was going. Okay, enough about that...I digress, and I apologize. About biting and eye gouging.
I have been in a fight with a grappler (before I knew anything about the ground) and I bit him. He got off of me, and I was able to get back to my feet. I feel I lost that fight however, because he could have taken me down at will if the fight had not been broken up. (this was a teen fight long ago) I got into a fight before I knew grappling and was taken down again. I eyegouged the man and he grew furious and started beating my head in.
Since learning BJJ and judo...I've won all my fights. Now, that's not saying much, but I do want to emphasize that eye gouging is harder and more disgusting than you think. And biting will a lot of times piss off your opponent. If I'm the grappler, and I have you down...and you try to eye gouge me....I'm going to rip your eyes out of your sockets..and there won't be a damn thing you can do about it. Not unless you know how to escape my hold...

learn to grapple. That is the defense.
.....LOL or a knife or gun I suppose...

Ryu

[Chad W. Getz]

I'm trying to get into a yoga class once a week, that's great to hear that you enjoyed it. I've noticed great improvement in my flexibility when I stretch thoughout the week.

I think the way to counter the biting is though good positioning.

[gungfuhero]

The pre-kali class yoga left me feeling good all day, until later durring Vale Tudo when a guy 50 lbs. heavier than me put a full nelson on me (when it's put on hard enough to make you tap, the pain is incredibly intense).

An expample my instructor gave me for tactics against biting is to wedge your forehead tightly against the side of their face near or on the mandibles. He did it on me and I couldn't turn my head at all, let alone position myself to bite.

Does the fact that a self proclaimed JKD man hasn't won the UFC take away the concept's validity? Did Steve Jennums's victory in UFC 3 mean that Ninjitsu was superior? Does the fact that a Judoka hasn't won the UFC make it invalid? What about Boxing? I'm sure 99% of us think that Boxing has a lot to offer (including myself) but a straight out Boxer hasn't won the UFC. Does the fact that several of the Garcies have been beaten by Sak mean that GJJ/BJJ is inferior? Of course not.

Just remember: Green Dragon style beats Drunken Monkey, Wing Chun beats Choy Li Fut, and Mantis Fist beats Bak Mei.

[Leif]

Rubbaneck and all, Just to set the record straight JKD guys do win in NHB regulary. The guys (and girls) at our school have been competing and winning in the UFC, IFC, and Vale-Tudo for the past 8 years! Two weeks ago our own Miguel Menendez won his IFC match in one minute, nine seconds against an experienced opponent. For the details and a ton of excellent info check out Joe Maffei's JKD forum at mixedmartialarts.com, in the underground forum. It will be well worth the "trip"! P.S. Mousel, very nice forum you have here! Peace! -Leif.

[Maxximus]

First off, I think that there is no questioning the validity of the JKD mindset in training. And I believe that there have been more than enough successful JKD fighters in MMA (a few well known and quite a few not so known) to prove the potential of JKD influenced training. That being said, i think its important to point out that the people who do best in NHB/MMA are people trained exclusively for the purpose of being great cage fighters. And they get their training from serious fighter gyms (Lion's Den, for example). Now the reason why not very many fighters exclusively affiliated with JKD organizations win big in MMA is because there really aren't many JKD clubs that are aimed mainly towards training serious fighters. The prevailing mentality among people who label themselves "JKD" seems to be aimed towards realistic training for the purpose of self defense skills, a good workout and for the art itself. If there were more JKD gyms that focused on producing fighters as their main goal (much in the same way that boxing gyms and Lion's Dens do), then I think you'd see plenty of great fighters listing their discipline as Jeet Kune Do. It's really not a question of technique or approach (I think its pretty safe to say that JKD guys in general have a pretty functional theory towards martial arts and are in no shortage of diversified training and technique), but it is simply a question of the goals you train for and the extent to which you push for those goals. The prevailing goal among most JKD guys I know seems to be to find the path to martial arts development that holds the most truth to them and to test themselves in different situations, which may mean competing in MMA or stickfighting or whatever at some point in time just to have real experience, but not necessarily to become the heavyweight champion of the world.