Feints (Fakes)

**Hardball** · 03-21-2006, 01:58 PM

They say that Feints are the mark of the expert fighter. They say with two equally matched fighters--the one who fakes the best will win. How do you feel about fakes? I like to fake with my eyes, my shoulders, my hands and my feet. Sometimes I get a big reaction from my sparring partner and sometimes I get no reaction. Fakes can destroy a fighter's timing and leave an opening in a tough defense. What is your experience with feints? Both from an offensive standpoint and defensive standpoint?

aseepish · 03-21-2006, 05:39 PM

Feints are great. I like to use a pain-shot (thigh kick, groin attack) to get my opponent's attention, fake the shot again, and strike on a different line. That usually gets a big reaction. Classic PIA (Progressive Indirect Attack) from JKD theory.

Subtle feints (using the eyes and shoulders) paradoxically work best with a more experienced opponent. Beginners don't typically react to them - they don't know any better!

Tant01 · 03-21-2006, 05:53 PM

AITE-NO-TSUKURI
Conditioning of your opponent or partner. This is the preparing or setting up of your opponent in order to execute your technique so that it is most effective. Once you have got him in the most advantageous position for you, you then execute your technique.

"There are many possible combinations and many variations in their application (in some cases the initial attack is merely a feint) but the principle remains the same, i.e. to utilize the opponent's reaction to one attack to unbalance him and leave him vulnerable to attack by another technique." --Teizo Kawamura, Judo Combination Techniques

BoarSpear · 03-21-2006, 05:57 PM

It all depends on your definition of a feint...i dont care for physical movements as fakes, however, Attack by deception is the sign of an expert.

One thing can look like another, posture and an apparent lack of attention can lure your "victim" into a false assumption and cause them to launch a less than optimal attack. i use "Eagle vision" (periphial vision) so it appears you arent paying attention as well as practicing taiji which is known for "Whirling hands around opponents head before delivering strike" as my grandad called it. This "whirling" is actually the fient or sublimal gesture hidden in Taiji, this is also hidden in the "framing" of the hands in the FMA's

i also walk with a cane with a heavy chrome skull head so people often assume im another injured old biker...not feints in the physical sense of the word, but they serve to put the other guys mind and body in the "wrong" place.

Edit...We also stress Attacking the sky to create an opening at the ground. Or attacking the Ground (leg) to create an opening at the sky (head).

>:) · 03-21-2006, 06:55 PM

absolutely i use feints, one of the best ways to read, study and errr disect

your opponent. fighting with your brain is just as important as fighting with your muscles. IMO a truely great fighter should know how to feint, draw, decept and also understand how to falsely react to their opponents feints. feinting a feint

thtackett · 03-22-2006, 01:11 AM

They are good against a blocker or runner, but shouldn't work against someone who knows JKD.

jeff5 · 05-11-2006, 09:37 AM

In my experience they're extremely useful. When I spar I used PIA (progressive indirect attack), and I score with it quite a bit. Even a plain old good fake can make an opening. The trick is to do them right. Like a magician almost. You have to make your opponent believe you are really attacking him/her in that area, when you actually aren't. You HAVE to sell it really well, or its useless.

thtackett · 05-11-2006, 01:12 PM

If a guy fakes or feints don't try to block or run. Hit him! PIA was never meant to work against JKD. It was developed for the type of fighter who blocks and hits or runs. Bruce told this to Bremer. We worked on this in Dan Inosanto's backyard and even showed this in Dan's first book. The 5 ways of attack are not meant to work against all types of opponents.

Tant01 · 05-11-2006, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thtackett

If a guy fakes or feints don't try to block or run. Hit him! .......

Thanks Mr. Tackett. If you don't mind I'm keeping this as a quote from you!

thtackett · 05-11-2006, 03:00 PM

It was first said by Bruce.

Tant01 · 05-11-2006, 03:04 PM

Seems like something he'd say....

I'll just stick it in my notepad for refrence then. Thanks kindly.

The_Judo_Jibboo · 05-11-2006, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aseepish

Subtle feints (using the eyes and shoulders) paradoxically work best with a more experienced opponent. Beginners don't typically react to them - they don't know any better!

This is funny but very true. When i stay around to help with the beginning classes i usually just leave feints out of it, i feel like i'm using the perfect bait on blind fish!

Tant01 · 05-13-2006, 04:39 PM

Feints or false attacks are especially brutal (deadly or bloody) with blades...

BoarSpear · 05-13-2006, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tant01

Feints or false attacks are especially brutal (deadly or bloody) with blades...

......... Enganyo

knifethrower · 05-13-2006, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

This "whirling" is actually the fient or sublimal gesture hidden in Taiji, this is also hidden in the "framing" of the hands in the FMA's

-------------------------

View Poll Results: Which statement best describes your attitude about Fakes?
Feints are highly over rated and useless	0	0%
I use feints occasionally	2	6.90%
I always use feints	11	37.93%
Feints are best when Immediaetly followed with attack	10	34.48%
Feints leave you open to immediate counter attack	2	6.90%
Feints are only useful for Boxers	2	6.90%
Other-write in your comment	2	6.90%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

03-21-2006, 01:58 PM	#1 (permalink)
Hardball Premiere Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,381 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	Feints (Fakes) They say that Feints are the mark of the expert fighter. They say with two equally matched fighters--the one who fakes the best will win. How do you feel about fakes? I like to fake with my eyes, my shoulders, my hands and my feet. Sometimes I get a big reaction from my sparring partner and sometimes I get no reaction. Fakes can destroy a fighter's timing and leave an opening in a tough defense. What is your experience with feints? Both from an offensive standpoint and defensive standpoint? __________________ The Way of the Warrior is Practice. Daily practice, accumulate practice minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day. {Book of 5 Rings} Mike Brewers 2008 Sit up challenge 48,000/100,000 running balance.(Crunches) Kicks 6,300/100,000

03-21-2006, 05:39 PM	#2 (permalink)
aseepish Registered User Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: British Columbia Posts: 1,635 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Feints are great. I like to use a pain-shot (thigh kick, groin attack) to get my opponent's attention, fake the shot again, and strike on a different line. That usually gets a big reaction. Classic PIA (Progressive Indirect Attack) from JKD theory. Subtle feints (using the eyes and shoulders) paradoxically work best with a more experienced opponent. Beginners don't typically react to them - they don't know any better! __________________ "It was about that time I realized that searching was my symbol, the emblem of those who go out at night with nothing in mind, the motives of a destroyer of compasses." -Cortázar

03-21-2006, 05:53 PM	#3 (permalink)
Tant01 Humble Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northern Ca. USA Posts: 5,076 Groans: 0 Groaned at 12 Times in 7 Posts	Mostly.... AITE-NO-TSUKURI Conditioning of your opponent or partner. This is the preparing or setting up of your opponent in order to execute your technique so that it is most effective. Once you have got him in the most advantageous position for you, you then execute your technique. "There are many possible combinations and many variations in their application (in some cases the initial attack is merely a feint) but the principle remains the same, i.e. to utilize the opponent's reaction to one attack to unbalance him and leave him vulnerable to attack by another technique." --Teizo Kawamura, Judo Combination Techniques __________________ "In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur." James Paterson

03-21-2006, 06:55 PM	#5 (permalink)
>:) Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: england Posts: 145 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	absolutely i use feints, one of the best ways to read, study and errr disect your opponent. fighting with your brain is just as important as fighting with your muscles. IMO a truely great fighter should know how to feint, draw, decept and also understand how to falsely react to their opponents feints. feinting a feint __________________

03-21-2006, 05:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
BoarSpear Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,729 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	It all depends on your definition of a feint...i dont care for physical movements as fakes, however, Attack by deception is the sign of an expert. One thing can look like another, posture and an apparent lack of attention can lure your "victim" into a false assumption and cause them to launch a less than optimal attack. i use "Eagle vision" (periphial vision) so it appears you arent paying attention as well as practicing taiji which is known for "Whirling hands around opponents head before delivering strike" as my grandad called it. This "whirling" is actually the fient or sublimal gesture hidden in Taiji, this is also hidden in the "framing" of the hands in the FMA's i also walk with a cane with a heavy chrome skull head so people often assume im another injured old biker...not feints in the physical sense of the word, but they serve to put the other guys mind and body in the "wrong" place. Edit...We also stress Attacking the sky to create an opening at the ground. Or attacking the Ground (leg) to create an opening at the sky (head).

03-22-2006, 01:11 AM	#6 (permalink)
thtackett Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Redlands, Ca Posts: 162 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	They are good against a blocker or runner, but shouldn't work against someone who knows JKD. __________________ Tim Tackett

05-11-2006, 09:37 AM	#7 (permalink)
jeff5 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 175 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	In my experience they're extremely useful. When I spar I used PIA (progressive indirect attack), and I score with it quite a bit. Even a plain old good fake can make an opening. The trick is to do them right. Like a magician almost. You have to make your opponent believe you are really attacking him/her in that area, when you actually aren't. You HAVE to sell it really well, or its useless.

05-11-2006, 01:12 PM	#8 (permalink)
thtackett Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Redlands, Ca Posts: 162 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	If a guy fakes or feints don't try to block or run. Hit him! PIA was never meant to work against JKD. It was developed for the type of fighter who blocks and hits or runs. Bruce told this to Bremer. We worked on this in Dan Inosanto's backyard and even showed this in Dan's first book. The 5 ways of attack are not meant to work against all types of opponents. __________________ Tim Tackett

05-11-2006, 03:00 PM	#10 (permalink)
thtackett Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Redlands, Ca Posts: 162 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	It was first said by Bruce. __________________ Tim Tackett

05-11-2006, 03:04 PM	#11 (permalink)
Tant01 Humble Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northern Ca. USA Posts: 5,076 Groans: 0 Groaned at 12 Times in 7 Posts	Seems like something he'd say.... I'll just stick it in my notepad for refrence then. Thanks kindly. __________________ "In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur." James Paterson

05-13-2006, 04:39 PM	#13 (permalink)
Tant01 Humble Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northern Ca. USA Posts: 5,076 Groans: 0 Groaned at 12 Times in 7 Posts	Feints or false attacks are especially brutal (deadly or bloody) with blades... __________________ "In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur." James Paterson

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