Streetfighting and Egomaniacs

[Mike Brewer]

Please excuse the dual post. This is also in Urban Combatives. But since it was a JKD person who inspired the question, I thought it appropriate to post it in both places.

Also known as "Why does the thought of training for reality situations bring out every crazy in the world?"

I've noticed something kinda disturbing. There's a lot of talk about streetfights on this forum. Most of it is worthwhile. But every so often, a thread comes around that gets the wannabes foaming at the mouth. It seems these people want you to believe that every fight you'll ever encounter is a life and death situation. They want you to believe that you will always be facing the Grim Reaper whenever you are forced to protect yourself, and that training for anything less than outright bare-handed killing is irresponsible somehow.

What's with these drama freaks anyway? What is it about training for reality that makes them feel a need to put out the image of wild-card assassins, caged and ready to pounce at the first provocation? I thought martial arts training was supposed to prepare you while making your life more enjoyable!

You go out to Google videos or YouTube or any of the hundreds of similar sites, and you'll see tons of streetfights caught on tape. Some are shocking, to be sure. But the vast, vast majority (just like in real life) are scuffles where people maybe walk away with some minor scrapes and bruises. Seriously, mountain biking is more dangerous than the average streetfight! And by average, I mean the kind you're most likely to run into. Do exceptions exist? Of course. Do people get killed in fights? Yeah. But people also get killed eating dinner and taking baths. The statistical averages will show you that an overwhelming number (over 95% by some accounts) of people who have experienced a physical assault in their lifetime were not seriously hurt. Further stats (though more varied) will show that of people that have been in multiple physical assaults, only between 10 and 15 percent were ever seriously injured. And that's a stat taken from people who repeatedly get into those kinds of situations. It says nothing for the majority who manage somehow to avoid fights for their entire lives.

So what gives? Are the people who make a big production out of how lethal you need to be just trying to cash in on a fear of violence? Someone once accused me of trying to cash in on the MMA craze by training grappling. Is trying to cash in on people's inherent fear of violence any different? I'd like to hear from both sides on this one. MMA people, Japanese stylists, Chinese stylists, JKD folks (especially us JKD folks, since our "tribe" seems among the worst offenders), and just plain combatives oriented people. To me, it seems like melodramatic posturing. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Tom Yum]

Training in ma is enjoyable, Mike.

I think I know what you're talking about though. Sometimes there's a place for that kind of training. But all the time? Probably not.

[Mike Brewer]

I just think that training to be prepared for the worst-case scenario is different from training to expect it each and every time. Preparedness means learning to see, to reason, and to anticipate so that you can prevent and avoid. It's the highest form of interception. It means reducing all the risk factors possible so that in the event that a situation does arise, it's all but over before it begins. It gives you confidence, and the forewarning to act decisively, and with an appropriate amount of force. Expecting the worst each and every time you have some kind of conflict with someone seems like a good way to live a paranoid life. I guess I value training that allows me to expect the best out of people, but not be surprised by the worst. I can't see happiness and expecting the worst going very well together.

[Robert R]

Interesting topic, espically considering the number of Sifu Davis' in the world ("HARDCORE" Jeet Kune Do? Just read the interview with the guy on his site).

Do you think that articles pertaining to that kind of info, and people that act like that may stem from their own uncertainties as to whether their MA is effective or not? I mean, do things like this pop up because of the Average Joe doubting the "fancy" fighting styles?

[Mike Brewer]

I have to be honest - I always thought it stemmed from commercialism, but I really don't know. I stay away from those poeple in my own training, so I'm not sure what makes them tick.

[Maxx]

Something that just recently occurred to me regarding people of that nature... you know, the ones who always view every potential altercation as a live or die situation...

They may be trying to fill a void in their lives by pursuing something to the extreme. I've met a number of individuals of that nature... I'm sure that we all have... maybe you guys could back me up on this but it always seems like the person is a little off or has some type of social problem that he's never been able to come to terms with. A couple of the people I've met have a hard time socializing with women. Others seem to have a hard time settling down into a solid relationship. Others still seem to be totally unsocialized when it comes to groups of people and usually have very few if any friends. They always seem to be perpetually angry and exhibit a forboding energy along with a twisted sense of humor and not a lot of restraint when talking about their views of the martial arts. The friends that they do have share similar views.

Certain aspects of the martial arts promote a strong sense of individual development which is good. The problem that I've seen is that it sometimes attracts people that look at it from the other angle and these people develop extreme views and feel that the image of the "lone monk on the mountain top practicing his kata" validates antisocial behavior.

Not to say that martial arts practice is to blame... but I feel for certain people it is the trigger. Especially if that person's instructor exhibited any kind of behavior that the "goofball" in question can easily relate to.

Of course this is all just a theory of mine, but most of the people that I've met who exhibit the nature mentioned above seem to have a lot of the same issues.

[jeff5]

There has to be a balance. The vast majority of people who practice martial arts will never have to use them for self defense. Thankfully. I think its important to train for self defense and self defense type scenarios. I also think its equally important to improve yourself physically and mentally through Martial Arts. For these reasons, I always list my goals in Martial Arts in this order:

Have fun
Get in shape
Self defense

[kiddbjj]

great topic mike

i have to agree, much of the combatives approach is geared toward making you think that we live in a freakin state of anarchy where anything goes everyday. it preys on the fears of people that may already have low self esteem or 'socialisation' issues. i agree with matt thornton who says that most of these guys were the geeks at school that always got picked on, never had a girlfriend and where sh*t at athletic pursuits or sports.

but what is martial arts if not primarily a physical and athletic pursuit?? for the crazies its all about secret and forbidden techniques that require NO atleticism, NO rigorous, sweaty or physical training, NO getting punched in the face or tapping out, NO paying your dues when sparring those with more experience or skill and NO RESPECT for the time, effort and up-hill battle that characterises the pursuit of ANY type of skill in ANY field.

thats why i love grappling styles such as BJJ, judo, shuai jiao chinese wrestling etc. BECAUSE the techniques they teach & the hands-on training against resisting opponents gives you the ability to tailor the severity of your response to the specifics of a situation. you don't have to stab your drunk uncle at the family christmas party in the eye with your pocket knife (tucked into your sock) because he's shoving your other uncle around, instead you might restrain him until he calms down a bit. problem solved.

if your a security guard, grappling will help you to escort a rowdy patron out of a night club without bloodying him up or embarrasing him so that next weekend he comes back to get revenge on you with a car full of mates.

violence is a terrible thing, we should try to avoid it at all costs. as mike said life is too much fun to bring yourself down with paranoia and fear, which in itself further adds to the potential for violence in society.

also lets not forget the wonderful other benefits from ma training. heaps of people die everyday from heart disease and obesity related illness due to a lack of exercise and healthy habits. ma is great to alleviate this. i've been to china and seen old people in the parks doing tai chi and other forms of chinese martial arts that put our western elderly people to shame. increible flexibility, endurance and VITALITY for their age. so important.

end of rant

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by kiddbjj

i've been to china and seen old people in the parks doing tai chi and other forms of chinese martial arts that put our western elderly people to shame. increible flexibility, endurance and VITALITY for their age. so important.

end of rant

Are you advocating a UFC for the silver set to 'settle the score'?

[Mike Brewer]

Good points, all. I have trained and used martial arts from a lot of different "angles." I was a security professional, and had to fight often without the option of hurting people. Those "less lethal" options were lifesavers on both sides of the equation during those times. Those times also taught me that I really can handle a lot without having to kill someone, which has been an important lesson ever since. I faced situations that, had I only been imagining them I might have thought, "Yeah, I'd kill someone if they ever did that." In all but two or three of those, I was able to subdue the offenders without causeing them lifelong damage.

After that "life" I was a soldier. The lethal option was always first. I've had people fire shots at me in anger, and I've returned them. But there were always times when confrontations happened outside of armed combat. Yeah, I had two firearms and numerous blades, but if I opened fire on every perceived threat, I'd be sitting in jail with the other "murderers" who exercised that so-called "trained reflex" under stress. It's one of the things that makes me question people like Uke on the topic. They maintain that fighting is a reflex, but then they get upset at troops who "react" instead of thinking things through. It's like the people who constantly posture and preach that there's no such thing as fighting fair, and then get mad when nations "cheat" at war. It shows they've never been there, and never lived it.

Nowadays, I am a trainer, and that's pretty much it. My hellraising days are long gone, I don't like doing security work, and my time as a soldier in in its last year. But as a trainer, I am constantly preoccupied with the thought that I need to be making warriors - not just fighters - out of the soldiers they send me to train. Motivation and "Kill, Kill, Kill" is good for making it through some of the tougher classes, but when these guys hit the battlefield, I want to make sure that they are not only the toughest, best trained fighters (and if need be, killers) on the planet, I also want them to have a sense of honor, integrity, purpose, and clarity of mission. I want them to be smart, thinking people - not robotic, reflexive killers. It seems like the topic we're discussing brings up the same basic quandry. How do you give people the abiltiy to fight and kill without making it their purpose in life? Several people I've trained with (all of them, in fact) have done a wonderful job - from Guro Dan Inosanto to Daniel Duby (the best savate man I've ever seen, and one hell of a modern day pirate!), Paul Vunak to Brad Garrison - all of these people train in miraculously effective methods, but they never lose sight of living well, being happy, and making the world a better place for their efforts. It concerns me when I see the other side. The people who make their money on the misfits by teaching them how to injure and kill their fellow man without the character and integrity to understand or accurately weigh the consequences of those actions or that lifestyle.

Anyway, thanks for the input so far. Please, keep adding.

[PFS kali]

Hello.
I'm not one to post much on forums, but I was surfing, saw this thread, and decided to at least put some thoughts in since it dealt with aspects of MA that are pretty dear to me.
First, I am a Full Instructor under Guru Paul Vunak in JKDC and the Filipino martial arts. I've had the opportunity to train FMA from other wonderful instructors such as Dan Inosanto and the Atienza brothers. I teach Paul's PFS blade system as my main focus with other focus being placed on decent groundfighting, and occasional full contact stick fighting.
I tend to not puruse the professional martial art field, but have been involved with MA for the last 20 years and have seen and been through a lot with it. I also have worked security, worked and assisted police officers in said security business, and have witnessed and gone through different kinds of violence.
What Mike has said is very true from my experiences. I do not believe that the psychology to initiate violence can be boxed into those who were "geeks" in high school, or who were "jocks" and such. People are way to varied and complex for that sort of thing.
Being violent, I think, stems from various reasons including things like fear, hopelessness, hunger, anger issues, depression, narcissism, upbringing, being void of objective moral standpoints, void of ethical understanding, etc.
To be perfectly honest, most of the people I have met who have fit into the extreme "street soldier" type of mentality never fight. They only talk about gouging eyes, biting throats, stabbing people, etc. When they do get into altercations, they either freeze up and lose, or run.
Reason being because they've never been in situations where they've had to pull a weapon (which for most people is extremely rare), and usually don't compete enough (whether in sparring or competition) to really have a workable understanding of the physics of being in a confrontation whether it be mental or physical.
"Egoism" is not just a "street MA" thing. Egoism and the disrespect most people show for each other, martial or otherwise stems from the simple fact that many people care about themselves before others, want to feel important in the eyes of others, and a host of other cultural aspects that I don't really need to go into.
Being genuine is something that is hard to do. We all tend to wear masks at some point in our lives.
But to be blunt, the "street soldier" who constantly talks about stabbing people in the eyes, biting their nipples off, grappling against multiple opponents, lava, etc. is not much different from the MMA guys who "tap out" the 19 year old ninja nerd, then go snicker and laugh at him in forums or at their school. Not too much different in mentality at least. Both want to prove the flaws of the other, both tend to approach each other with false respect for the sake of being civil, and both deep down think the other is a twat.
Granted this is a strong generalization, but if you're talking about egoism than I don't believe it's too far off the mark.
A competitive fighter will just about always beat the 19 year old nerd who never competes. It doesn't matter what martial art he studies. But the fact that many people like to show the nerd the "error of their ways" I think still stems a little bit from the ego. Just my personal opinion.

Actually getting into fights on the "street" has just as many variables. Many people do it. Some never do it. Anyone can be dragged into a fight over something whether they are a boxer, a karateka, a MMA fighter, a librarian, a bicyclist, whatever.

People react violently, unethically, or unreasonably due to the fact that they're usually not in control of their ego, manners, anger, whatever.
And even though the martial arts can be ways to channel these things in positive ways... I haven't, in my experience, seen a vast difference in Martial Arts people than any average joe in terms of ethics, mentality, or egoism.

[PFS kali]

all that being said, however, I would like to add that if you are teaching martial art or competitive fighting, then a truly decent understanding of ethics, legality, and manners should be something to put in the curriculum.

[Kirves]

I think the latter half of Matt Thornton's article over here analyses quite well why certain type of people emerge when someone starts talking about street fighting and reality based MAs. Usually there's some kind of psychological fear that one is trying to mask away by supposedly becoming a "killing machine" and learning a "killer instinct" while usually their fears are simply worsened by improper training (improper for their inherent problem, that is, many of them might be better off seeing a shrink than a MA instructor) and lack of finding out why they are so fearful in the first place.

[Garland]

Shit...I gots da killa instinct...shit. And I got da RBSD, I'm so prepared, I shaved a badass on the back of my head.

[us-navy-seal]

Mike you are correct. I think that some of the people who are saying such things have probably never had a serious combat experience, causing them to misjudge the true factors of fighting. The whole apeal of being a 'deadly weapon' is sort of a little boy dream from the Bruce Lee flicks that we all watched. Hell, I'll admit that before I enlisted, I was just like that. Always wanted to learn to be deadly and unstoppable...when I didn't need to be.

But as I said in another thread, avoid fighting at all costs unless the need be so. Sure, learn to prepare yourself physically for something, but work on mental stability and full control over your body. Even then, why would you need it unless you are contemplating something in your future career that would require it such as Marines, SEALs, Rangers etc.? If not, you got a loose gun on your hands and who knows what could happen with it. So for those who want to learn the deadly side of the arts, it's not needed in a world like today. Street fights start with a small quarrel, depending on the person's mood and their 'fuse' as I call it. They usually wear out quickly and are usually too afraid to do any real damage. Just don't provoke them beyond what is needed.

The level of danger in a fight varies from person to person. But if all of us did these deadly arts...what would happen if you ever fought each other? That is when the rate of injuries in fights go up. Basically, if all of us knew these arts and the younger ones who were dieing to get their hands on the skills used it in street fights, it would just make the violence worse.

Although I may not be following the same track as you Mike, I'm still with the 'Avoid a fight' factor.

Martial Arts should be a positive life factor in people's lives. Boost self-esteem, learn to defend yourself *WITHOUT* killing or seriously injuring the assailant, get in shape and learn respect. Martial arts isn't just a fighting form, it's a way of life. Think positive, do positive, be positive and you'll be treated positive.