questions about BL

[jeffmichaels]

I read with interest the below troll-post. I am Dan Inosanto's biggest fan.
However, I have a few concerns. First, what is the real truth about the Wong Jak Man fight? Second, after Bruce became wealthy, he could have finished his wing chun training with a master outside the Yip line, and he could have hired pro boxers as trainers or sparring partners. Why didn't he?
I am not talking about the sort of Joe Lewis rips we are used to seeing, but just some honest questions.

[Kirves]

Second, after Bruce became wealthy, he could have finished his wing chun training with a master outside the Yip line, and he could have hired pro boxers as trainers or sparring partners. Why didn't he?

Lee was a workaholic with a dream of hitting it big in Hollywood. No asian had ever never ever even dreamed of becoming a Hollywood superstar. Lee had that chance, he wanted to take it. He worked at it so hard he kind of burnt out (my personal interpretation, back then "burn out" wasn't really a term used, but nowadays it is commonplace for workaholics) and had some problems because of that. Besides being a fully worked movie star, he trained and studied martial arts as much as the neighbour went to a job. Add to that his new family with two small children. You think he would really have the energy to now spend lots of time studying an art that was now by his newfound standards considered a classical mess, a thing to stay clear of? He had his movie work, he had his training, he was teaching, he had a family, he burned out with all that. That's my opinion.

[sikal]

I read with interest the below troll-post. I am Dan Inosanto's biggest fan.
However, I have a few concerns. First, what is the real truth about the Wong Jak Man fight? Second, after Bruce became wealthy, he could have finished his wing chun training with a master outside the Yip line, and he could have hired pro boxers as trainers or sparring partners. Why didn't he?
I am not talking about the sort of Joe Lewis rips we are used to seeing, but just some honest questions.

No one knows the *real* truth about the Wong Jak Man fight. There are several versions floating around but unless you've got a time machine there's absolutely no way to determine which version is the *real* truth.

And the only person who can really answer the question about why he didn't got back to finish his Wing Chun training would be Lee himself - and he's not talking.

I would guess that Lee felt he had learned what he needed from Wing Chun and that he had moved beyond a need to pursue that line of training.

My question stems from this statement: "I am Dan Inosanto's biggest fan. However, I have a few concerns."

What does any of this have to do with Inosanto and what concerns does it raise - with Inosanto or anyone/anything else?

Mike

[jeffmichaels]

Sorry if made a false impression, I was simply expressing my support for Guro
concerning the critical comments of the previous poster vis a vis the BLF.
The purpose of my inquiry was simply to gain some knowledge; Bruce Lee
seems to have suffered from quite a bit of "he wasn't really very good" talk
recently, with the alternative version of the Wong fight plastered all over the Internet. I am not trying to establish a "hero-worship" base concerning BL, as I believe that there are many fighters today and prob. some at his time
who could have defeated him. I want some ammunition to answer the "pukies"
who attack BL, in other words. I believe he should be given full credit for what he did do, and if he made Wjm submit in less than five minutes, then that should be established as an historical fact, and not an object of scorn
and derision.

[Paco]

I am sure you read Dan Inosanto's "Jeet Kune Do: The Art and Philosophy of Bruce Lee". It's out of print by now, but if you are such a fan you'd do well to read it. And no, I'm not plugging anything, but IMO this is the most comprehensive bio of Bruce out there.
As for the Wong fight, it's importance is not so much who really won, but the fact that it was Bruce's "awakening" as to the truth of combat. After that fight, according to Dan, is when Bruce realized 1) adherence to certain techniques doesn't work, 2) need for physical conditioning is paramount and 3) the fight should not last that long.
With regards to the Wing Chun issue, I'm still reading and picking up things here and there, but a couple of things pop up:
1- Bruce never got past sil lum tao (the 1st form) of WC
2- Despite all his money, Bruce couldn't get Yip Man to meet him personally (during the movie star stage) so that Bruce could record him.

Jus my 2 cents.

[ASHTANGA05]

Bruce Lee had discarded the bulk of Wing Chun towards the end of his life, why would he want to complete training in a 'Classical Mess'? What he did not know in Wing Chun related to real fighting was pure BS anyway - Long Pole Form / Knives Form , etc. He did not practice nor believe in Chi Sao anymore , for himself personally as he did not need it , his attacks could not be stopped or obstructed by anyone.

Bruce knew the 2nd Form Chum Kiu as well in full, Paco incorrrectly said he only knew the first; although it is said he did not teach the 2nd form to anyone.

As for hiring pro boxers - as dumbass a question as you could possibly get! Why not hire the best from all arts - Karate, Muay Thai, etc to come over and spar? Fact is, he worked out with many from all arts & some really tough streetfighters, and knew most of the top guys in Hong Kong personally, and many of the best Worldwide. He sparred with top Karate guys - Chuck Norris, Louis Delgado, etc ; Kenpo guys - Dan Inosanto, Larry Hartsell, etc; Boxers : James Demile, etc, and many others. Bruce Lee was into killing the other guy not 'Boxing' as boxers do it; all Bruce's punches every one are different from boxers punches , despite some 'clueless' JKD instructors using purely normal boxing punches.

Wong Jack Man lost the fight, no question. Exactly what happened who cares? Fact is Bruce Lee realised the limitations of Wing Chun at that point, that it was not that versatile to deal with all eventualities of a confrontation, and also if you could blow away an opponent in 10 secs with Wing Chun, cardio wise you'd be fine, but longer as in a few minutes even with strong cardio you get tired real quick. Others have said it also like Patrick Strong, no matter how fit you cannot Chain Punch/Straight Blast for long periods in real fight , without getting seriously tired & thus risking losing the fight if your opponent is still fighting. Anyone reading this that thinks they are fit , move around whilst Straight Blasting full speed/power - see how long you can last, nearly all here under 30 secs & you are gassed completely finished! See Jesse Glover's account of WJM fight as Bruce Lee told it too him, many others like Dan Inosanto have commented on it also. Only one man LATER after Bruce passed claimed he won it - that was WJM of course, and he was lying for obvious reasons.

[ASHTANGA05]

Jeff Michaels ,

As for there are many fighters today who could have beaten him. Pleaseeeeeeee don't say the MMA crap - UFC guys, etc.

As for in his time, nobody was in his league that he met, many talked BS after he was gone, Joe Lewis , Bob Wall, etc , but none dared do it in his lifetime. Richard Bustillo has said in interviews Bruce Lee in a real fight would have wiped the floor with any of the current MMA champions - UFC , Pride, etc.

Joe Lewis, Bob Wall, etc have basically said they could have beaten Bruce after he passed of course, just to be on the safe side. Go read Louis Delgado's , Larry Hartsell, etc experiences of sparring with Bruce Lee. Others like Gene Lebell, etc have 'sugar coated the insults to Bruce Lee' (the great Gene fought in some fixed wrestling matches , & minor Judo tournaments, self proclaimed 'Toughest Man Alive' ; first real challenge he got from the Gracies , he crapped his pants & made very lame excuses about his age - what does that matter if you are 'The Toughest Man Alive'? You get attacked in the street could you use that excuse if you are older?). Nobody ever talked that sort of crap to his face, they know what they would have got.

MMA is a sport with rules, not real fighting by a long shot. Fact too, if it was real to the death gladiator type matches, it would have evolved very differently - better footwork (people wouldn't plod around flat footed with frontal stance , when a good straight kick to lead leg like side kick would break your lead leg), less willing to go to ground (where easy to lose an eye , get bitten, etc. Observe any UFC fight that hits ground imagine no rules how long would it last? Biting , eye gouging, spitting, pulling hair, etc. Look how easy it would be for either do do all those tactics, even person on bottom), etc, etc. Real fighting not by a long shot. Bruce trained for real encounters not a sport with rules - big difference.

[jubaji]

As for there are many fighters today who could have beaten him. Pleaseeeeeeee don't say the MMA crap - UFC guys, etc. .

Stupid.

Bruce Lee in a real fight would have wiped the floor with any of the current MMA champions - UFC , Pride, etc.

Stupid.

a good straight kick to lead leg like side kick would break your lead leg), less willing to go to ground (where easy to lose an eye , get bitten, etc. Observe any UFC fight that hits ground imagine no rules how long would it last? Biting , eye gouging, spitting, pulling hair, etc. Look how easy it would be for either do do all those tactics, even person on bottom), etc, etc.

Stupid.

[ASHTANGA05]

Jubaji,

No actually the true definition of the word 'stupid' , would be posting 'Stupid' as a comment three times with zero explanation in a discussion forum.

What I say is perfectly true, especially regarding the Evolution of MMA Contests, had they been real matches to the death, they certainly wouldn't be as keen to go to the ground, footwork would have improved, etc.

[jubaji]

What I say is perfectly true, especially regarding the blah, blah, blah...

Look kid, you seem to be the only one left here who is unaware of what a fan-boy nut-sucking idiot you look like. Do yourself a favor and STFU!

[ASHTANGA05]

Jubaji,

This is a discussion forum , saying Stupid x 3 , makes you look , yes you guessed it. Utterly pointless.

[jubaji]

This is a discussion forum.

And nobody has anything they want to discuss with you. So get the **** lost, you slack-jawed, nut-sucking idiot.

[Garland]

ASH...haven't you decided to **** off yet? Why...why do you plague us here? Seriously, you're like herpes...you disappear for awhile, and then pop back up into the picture to irritate and **** up life for everyone.

[jeffmichaels]

I am pro-Lee, but here are three names of guys who possibly could have taken Bruce and who are not MMA: Yamaguchi, GM Chang, and GM Wu of wu taiji. Not saying they would,
but it could have gone either way. Sifu Inosanto
has stated in articles that Bruce would have continued his classical training in wc or any other traditional cma if he could have found a qualified master willing to teach him.
Hawkins
Cheung once intimated something to the effect that Bruce wanted to strengthen his (wc) structure at some point. George Tan raised the question of Bruce's relationship to boxing. Lee read books and watched films, but he never sought out experts to teach him or pro's to give him competition. That is why Royce could not beat Matt Hughes: Royce thought he could do his usual stuff. If Royce trained and rolled with Couture to prepare for Hughes, who knows. You must seek out those who are better than you.
Jow Lewis admitted in one article that Lee's speed would have put thim top-10 in boxing in his weight class. So I think it is fully appropos to wonder that if wing chun and boxing were the nucleus of the Junfun arts, Lee became very good but he never really perfected his system. Likewise, the Yip Man line is not the only line of Wing Chun. It is the best known because lee was a star and because Yip taught publically. Lee could have easily used his power to master a non-yip line and to perfect his boxing. There are valid points raised by Lewis and others, although Lewis has an opinionated view of Lee.

[ASHTANGA05]

Yamaguchi The Cat you mean? Come on you are joking right?

http://www.kempokarate.com/yamaguchi_bio_1.cfm

At time of Bruce Lee's passing, he would have been over 60! Besides, have you seen the old b/w films of him in his prime? I have. Unless you are meaning another Yamaguchi? Look at his physique in his prime also, you think he trained anywhere near as hard as Bruce Lee did.

GM Chang & Wu, again please be serious a minute. They were not considered great in their prime by anyone, and most today would say GM Chang - who is he?

Take what Hawkins Cheung says with a hefty pinch of salt, like many Wing Chun people that trained or met Bruce, they can't or won't praise him too much , as it brings the inevitable questions - 'so why aren't you doing JKD if it was so good & Bruce Lee was so great?', etc; so you get the usual he never completed the WC system if he had he would have stayed with it, he was good I'm better, etc.

Again, Bruce Lee did not train to be a boxer, he did not do boxing punches at all! They might look like boxing punches to the untrained eye , but everyone was modified to be very different than boxing. Many JKD people just use boxing hands & tell you thats what Bruce Lee did mistakenly (look at Ron Balicki, Vunak videos boxing hands not JKD or BL hands). He encountered many that had done boxing , and was able to deal with them all easily. He looked at ways to beat a boxer, grappler, etc not to become one. In a streetfight do you think any boxer could have stood up to Bruce Lee using only there two hands - against all Bruce Lee's weapons?