Combat System vs. Martial Art

[fozzy40]

What is the difference between the two?

[Garland]

Originally Posted by fozzy40

What is the difference between the two?

pot-a-too-tat-o?

[Uke]

Originally Posted by fozzy40

Combat System vs. Martial Art: What is the difference between the two?

The real difference is that people who teach and have a real interest in combat as it pertains to self defense/urban combatives want to separate themselves from the McDojo's of the world.

Most arts, at some time or in some way, have been watered down. The aim of combat used to be to kill or incapacitate. As time went on, those ideas began to be looked upon as brutal and unnecessary ... outdated for a different era. So, martial arts became "friendlier" if you will. People weren't training like fanatics anymore. And that's why you don't see men of Oyama's caliber anymore.

Soon after, karate, tae kwon do and judo schools began popping up all over the place in storefront shopping areas. The majority of dues paying members became children. People began paying for promotion instead of earning it. Instructors began telling their students that watered down kata were actually "deadly secret movements" that could be performed in real fights. Brick breaking replaced sparring. And most of all, the coveted "black belt" began to mean more to students than the ability to fight.

Not every school went this route, but many, many did. Its were the money was at. People weren't willing to send their children to a school that claimed to teach killing arts, and kids are what keep the doors open in most places. Dojos became more of an aerobic daycare where the sensei was the Nanny than a place where people were getting educated to defend themselves against criminals.

So serious schools that strive to give the "old quality" of martial arts are distancing themselves from the white washed, watered down MA studios that are only in it for a buck and don't offer what they advertise. These schools have called what they do combatives, urban warfare, self defense, offensive tactics, etc.

Think about it. Martial arts like karate, jujitsu, kung fu, etc were all meant to defend against people with weapons, meaning that lives were on the line. At the time when these arts were being developed, they were the combatives of their day. They were the no-nonsense approach to defending lives and land. What they did back then worked fine for them. It suited their needs.

The arts we know today as karate, jujitsu and kung fu used to be dirty, brutal, direct methods of defending and killing. The practitioners were training fanatics just like Mas Oyama, and that's why legends of karate/kung fu fighters are from older times and we don't see many today. Its because no one dedicates themselves to that inhuman level of conditioning anymore. No one is willing to condition their fists, knife-hands, fingers, feet and shins to the point that they begin to calcify and deform. Men who did that could break you with a single blow or kick. They were in incredible shape, and could fight longer and harder than an ordinary man. Proof of that is Mas Oyama's three hundred man kumite.

Those were as far from McDojo's as you're going to get. And they were simply martial arts back then.

But today, because of marketing, and 3 page ads in black belt magazine, and charlatans doing tricks that have nothing to do with fighting, we have McDojo's. And a need for serious schools to distance themselves from them.

That's the difference.

[Tant01]

A bullet is part of a combat system. It doesn't care if you are an artist.

[Blue Wave Gym]

Originally Posted by Uke

The real difference is that people who teach and have a real interest in combat as it pertains to self defense/urban combatives want to separate themselves from the McDojo's of the world.

Most arts, at some time or in some way, have been watered down. The aim of combat used to be to kill or incapacitate. As time went on, those ideas began to be looked upon as brutal and unnecessary ... outdated for a different era. So, martial arts became "friendlier" if you will. People weren't training like fanatics anymore. And that's why you don't see men of Oyama's caliber anymore.

Soon after, karate, tae kwon do and judo schools began popping up all over the place in storefront shopping areas. The majority of dues paying members became children. People began paying for promotion instead of earning it. Instructors began telling their students that watered down kata were actually "deadly secret movements" that could be performed in real fights. Brick breaking replaced sparring. And most of all, the coveted "black belt" began to mean more to students than the ability to fight.

Not every school went this route, but many, many did. Its were the money was at. People weren't willing to send their children to a school that claimed to teach killing arts, and kids are what keep the doors open in most places. Dojos became more of an aerobic daycare where the sensei was the Nanny than a place where people were getting educated to defend themselves against criminals.

So serious schools that strive to give the "old quality" of martial arts are distancing themselves from the white washed, watered down MA studios that are only in it for a buck and don't offer what they advertise. These schools have called what they do combatives, urban warfare, self defense, offensive tactics, etc.

Think about it. Martial arts like karate, jujitsu, kung fu, etc were all meant to defend against people with weapons, meaning that lives were on the line. At the time when these arts were being developed, they were the combatives of their day. They were the no-nonsense approach to defending lives and land. What they did back then worked fine for them. It suited their needs.

The arts we know today as karate, jujitsu and kung fu used to be dirty, brutal, direct methods of defending and killing. The practitioners were training fanatics just like Mas Oyama, and that's why legends of karate/kung fu fighters are from older times and we don't see many today. Its because no one dedicates themselves to that inhuman level of conditioning anymore. No one is willing to condition their fists, knife-hands, fingers, feet and shins to the point that they begin to calcify and deform. Men who did that could break you with a single blow or kick. They were in incredible shape, and could fight longer and harder than an ordinary man. Proof of that is Mas Oyama's three hundred man kumite.

Those were as far from McDojo's as you're going to get. And they were simply martial arts back then.

But today, because of marketing, and 3 page ads in black belt magazine, and charlatans doing tricks that have nothing to do with fighting, we have McDojo's. And a need for serious schools to distance themselves from them.

That's the difference.

most fair minded ma people will agree with about at leat 50% of what you are saying yes most tma has become completely watered down but i think that even the old school fanatics would fall by the wayside compared to todays combat athletes btw I've always treid to be as much in the same mindset as the original practitioners.

[Garland]

Martial ART
Combat SPORT
RBSD
Hand to Hand Combat/ Combatives


and then sheer fucking insanity...which is an individual's EXTREME and obsessive presentation of the art...like Oyama or Kimura.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Blue Wave Gym

most fair minded ma people will agree with about at leat 50% of what you are saying yes most tma has become completely watered down but i think that even the old school fanatics would fall by the wayside compared to todays combat athletes btw I've always treid to be as much in the same mindset as the original practitioners.

Oyama:

"Oyama trained twelve hours a day. His regimen consisted of physical training, fasting, misogi (meditation under waterfalls) and study of Zen and philosophy. He used trees and stones to strengthen his techniques, and bench pressed his body weight 500 times daily! He would begin training at five in the morning, running up the steep slopes. Using large rocks as weights, he would lift them hundreds of times to increase his strength. In addition, he performed kata a minimum of one hundred times each day as well as hundreds upon thousands of repetitions of kihons (basic techniques), continuously pushing himself to the limits of human endurance."

Not to mention the 300 man kumite that Oyama created. Athletes today try to copy what he was able to do, but few can do what Oyama did.

Kimura:

"Even the night after the tournament Kimura was again training. He did 500 push ups, bunny hop 1km, and 500 karate chops before he went to bed. He did not sleep well that evening. Rather he kept reliving the moments of his championship match. He was troubled by the fact that he had lost a waza-ari by ken ken Uchimata. He felt this could have easily been ruled ippon in the other fighter's favor. Therefore Kimura concluded that to maintain his title for the next 10 years he would have to train harder than the other judoka. Kimura trained 9 hours a day and did 1000 push-ups compared to 3-4 hours and 300 push ups of his rivals."

There aren't a lot of athletes if any at all doing what these men did regularly. Every strike, kick, and kata performed was done with focus and quality. Not just fast repetition to finish the count. These men were perfectionists. And that's why they were so dominate.

They didn't have today's sport science. They didn't have today's medicine or technology. Oyama, during his seclusion on the mountain often didn't even have training partners as most of the men who went up the mountain couldn't take the rigors of the training and seclusion and snuck away in the night. That says that Oyama had to push himself to train in that manner. He didn't have coaches screaming for him to push himself. He had to be his own motivation.

I for one have witnessed many modern fanatics who have deformed hands from conditioning. I have met those who train like Oyama, but never to the extent that he went to.

[dogzilla]

how do you mean deform hands?

and did you mean calcium?



just asking so ill know what u meant...

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Blue Wave Gym

most fair minded ma people will agree with about at leat 50% of what you are saying yes most tma has become completely watered down but i think that even the old school fanatics would fall by the wayside compared to todays combat athletes btw I've always treid to be as much in the same mindset as the original practitioners.

What's the 50% you didn't agree with?

[Blue Wave Gym]

I think that moderen combat athletes(mma fighters) would beat the old school fanatics down with a quickness.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Blue Wave Gym

I think that moderen combat athletes(mma fighters) would beat the old school fanatics down with a quickness.

Or die trying?

My "old school" starts around 06 (cal. 30) or 1911 if you get close enough for a double tap with the .45

Some folks just don't play nice...

[shaolin-warrior]

Originally Posted by Blue Wave Gym

I think that moderen combat athletes(mma fighters) would beat the old school fanatics down with a quickness.

Its possible, but purely speculative. How do you make a statement like that, and feel confident about it. I've seen some mma schools that we total mc-gyms. A good fighter is a good fighter regardless of his suscribed style of art. I wouldn't fight a boxer with tiger claw style, nor would i try to box a wrestler.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by shaolin-warrior

Its possible, but purely speculative. How do you make a statement like that, and feel confident about it. I've seen some mma schools that we total mc-gyms.

Absolutely true and accurate.

Originally Posted by shaolin-warrior

A good fighter is a good fighter regardless of his suscribed style of art. I wouldn't fight a boxer with tiger claw style, nor would i try to box a wrestler.

I'd rather tiger claw a boxer than box him, and I'd rather box a wrestler than wrestle him. I don't attack strength, so I wouldn't give him better odds by fighting a familiar fight.

[jeff5]

This is a good topic, and it makes me think of the art I currently practice. Its called American Kuntao Silat. The art itself has Chinese, Indonesian, and Western origins. We use some Indonesian and Chinese terms, but for the most part we have are own explanations for things and really could care less where something comes from, or what its called, as long as it works. I guess by Mike's definition (which is darn good), I practice more of a combat system than a martial art. By our own admission; meaning myself, my peers in the art, and my instructors, we're concerned with fighting above all else. Learning terminology, history etc., is secondary.

I can't even fathom training like Kimura or Oyama. The amount of sheer determination is inrcedible. I try to train every day, and even that is hard! Rocky Marciano was another guy who was just a training maniac.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

There will always be good and bad "deliveries" of the same base ideal.

This is UNDENIABLY true.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Effectiveness and survivability are what count.

That's the bottom line.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

A Martial Art, on the other hand, is concerned with more than fighting alone. To some degree, most if not all martial arts (by any modern interpretation) concern themselves at least in some small part with the culture from which they came. It's not uncommon for Silat practitioners to learn to fight with garments they'd never wear or weapons they'd never carry. Likewise, it's common for a Shotokan practitioner to be well versed in Japanese terminology and counting despite the ease of simply talking about techniques in the practitioners' native language. An Iaijutsu practioner might learn how to execute a kotegiri without ever realizing that he has just learned a "hand cut." A gung fu practitioner might learn to do a great chun choi without ever realizing that all he's learned is a straight punch. "Ichi, Ni, San, Shi..." echoes in many traditional Japanese-style dojos all around the world, even when students would understand "One, Two, Three, Four..." with far greater ease. Learning the traditions of an art's origin, learning that part of the warrior culture that spawned an art, is often a big reason practitioners participate in training such arts. They want more than fighting functionality. They want to identify with an ideal, an image, a culture, or a system of beliefs that they associate with the art they train. And in any reasonable and objective analysis, there's not a damned thing wrong with that!

Hmmm ... I can sort of agree with that Mike Brewer. But keep in mind, most "arts" were combat systems by nature. From aikijitsu to capoeira, the purpose of practice was to fight. And back then, people most often fought to kill.

The artsy stuff usually came in later because of lineages, stories told about former masters and their exploits and then culture.

Good post, Mike Brewer. Kudos!