Lop Sau, in full contact sparring

[eXcessiveForce]

Okay, I've been working with my training partner for awhile on using trapping during full speed full contact sparring.

In the beginning Paks were about the limit to what we were pulling off. But it has grown.

I'm running into a difficulty with lops though. My partners footwork has increased to a point where I often have to over extend to deliver enough power. This issue is compounded by a massive strength differential. He is much stronger than I am. I am much faster than he is.

But lately he has been able to pak my jab or cross on occasion and then hit the lop.

So does anybody have any tactics for defense against lops other than don't over extend.

[heyyou316us]

Originally Posted by eXcessiveForce

Okay, I've been working with my training partner for awhile on using trapping during full speed full contact sparring.

In the beginning Paks were about the limit to what we were pulling off. But it has grown.

I'm running into a difficulty with lops though. My partners footwork has increased to a point where I often have to over extend to deliver enough power. This issue is compounded by a massive strength differential. He is much stronger than I am. I am much faster than he is.

But lately he has been able to pak my jab or cross on occasion and then hit the lop.

So does anybody have any tactics for defense against lops other than don't over extend.

Kick to the shin

[eXcessiveForce]

We have been isolating hands only at this point. With kicks this isn't a problem.

however, Since this has been such a troublesome issue I will lay it out a little better and then give the solution.

Person A throws a Right Jab,
Person B paks with the left lead, hard enough to turn person A's body. and peforms a lop and then brings the right arm up at the elbows to pull person A's forearm flat to their chest. with left arm behind person A's right elbow.
This makes it very hard to retract. Due to the strength difference.
Then person B continues attack using left jab, and right jut type motions from the trapped arm.


I was getting tore up by this for a week or two. Last night I worked through it and came up with a solution.

As arm is trapped, instead of retraction, bury elbow point of trapped arm into sternum of person be and execute an elbow strike/push with the trapped arm. It breaks up the trap and allows for a left hand attack from person A.


As I said above, this is a specific counter to a full contact hands only sparring situation.

[Hardball]

I know you are using wing chun/JKD lingo but I don't remember it well enough to offer a suggestion. So just guessing, I'll say add a lot of feints.

If you post it in non wc/jkd lingo you may get better response.

What does your Sifu say about this problem?

[eXcessiveForce]

it would be easier to explain the terminology,

Pak is a downward slap at just above the wrist similar to a parry.

A lop is when the hand is grabbed at the wrist and pulled to the hip of the person doing the pulling.

In this case the lop is changing after the pull to break my balance, to a trap where my arm is held to his chest.


This is occurring in a black belt training group so we are all instructor level. So that why i figured I'd ask here to see if anybody had any other solutions.

After the last year of training we are finding lots of stuff doesn't work anymore because we know each others technique so well. Everything is constantly adapting. so what works one week rarely works next week. In this case, it's been tearing up my elbow and shoulder, so I was hoping to see if any people had an ideas.

I hope that helps explain what i'm talking about.

[John McNabney]

Pak is a downward slap at just above the wrist similar to a parry.

Pak Sao is forward energy.....Pak Sao downward will get you hit upside the head by a season JKDer.......A pak sao should always be forward energy, almost like a hit itself.......The reason you don't want to go downward is you'll get Jao Sao upside the head.


In this case the lop is changing after the pull to break my balance, to a trap where my arm is held to his chest.

Lop Sao is dissovling energy....When he lop sao you he disvolving your energy, so you need to go with "IT" and elbow him to the chest.


Hope this help and where is it that you at?

[eXcessiveForce]

Right outside st. louis,

yeah I didn't want to get the energies stuff too complex.

But what you say is definitely true. Doesn't take to many jao sau's to learn not to do that.
I perhaps should have said, in this case it is slightly down and directionally a lateral movement where my right moves to my left side. to set up the lop.

Going with it, so far has been the most effective. However it's somewhat dangerous for me, due to the large mass and strength difference in this case. However the elbow does seem to be the most effective way to break up the trap. Now to be able to do it under pressure and not get my head busted. LOL

[Hardball]

Yea, I suggest making this a double post. Copy and paste to the Chinese forum and let the Wing Chun Crowd make suggestions also. Since it is JKD instructor level, I will humble myself and just read the responses.

[Hardball]

Originally Posted by eXcessiveForce

Right outside st. louis,

yeah I didn't want to get the energies stuff too complex.

But what you say is definitely true. Doesn't take to many jao sau's to learn not to do that.
I perhaps should have said, in this case it is slightly down and directionally a lateral movement where my right moves to my left side. to set up the lop.

Going with it, so far has been the most effective. However it's somewhat dangerous for me, due to the large mass and strength difference in this case. However the elbow does seem to be the most effective way to break up the trap. Now to be able to do it under pressure and not get my head busted. LOL

In any case you are getting great experience. I always like to train with the biggest and strongest partners available.

[eXcessiveForce]

It's okay, While we are all instructors, we aren't all JKD instructor level. We just are working on mutual development. I dominate in Kicking range, and have added some interesting twists to the kicking ranges of the JKD guys Due to my heavy influence of TKD. For instance use of a lead leg stop kick and being able to throw kicks above the waist inside boxing and even trapping range.

My trapping skills are probably the most primitive.

[eXcessiveForce]

As one guy says, I'm a big guy that hasn't figured out that i'm big. So that must be why I move so fast. LOL

We have fun. 4 days a week of full contact does take it's toll though.

[John McNabney]

My trapping skills are probably the most primitive.

Maybe you need to come hang out at my school for a while, I can change that

[eXcessiveForce]

Since most of us no longer have instructors we have actually talked about traveling to get more exposure.

I still have some big gaps in my JKD training. I have avoided weapons work, choosing to focus mostly on hand work and trapping.

Some day I would like to actually enter an instructor program for JKD but so far that opportunity has not been an option.

[John McNabney]

Originally Posted by eXcessiveForce

Since most of us no longer have instructors we have actually talked about traveling to get more exposure.

I still have some big gaps in my JKD training. I have avoided weapons work, choosing to focus mostly on hand work and trapping.

Some day I would like to actually enter an instructor program for JKD but so far that opportunity has not been an option.

Why not? Hey guys I done seminar before in other states, as well at my school. If you guys are "REAL" about learning......Set something up, here is. my e-mail: ctr1964@aol.com.


Take "IT" Easy,
John

[eXcessiveForce]

partially due to my circumstances. There are only a couple of us. And in 2005 I had brain surgery and ended up getting cut on 7 times through Feb of 2006. So I've gone from not being able to walk around the block, to putting in a hour of sparring in the last year. Unfortunately I wasn't able to work. so I was pretty much screwed financially. But I'm hoping by the end of the year I will have things back to normal.

So mostly everyone has been working with me to get me back up to speed.