Knife or stick vs Gun

[Aaron04]

In light of the recent horrors involving mass shootings, what methods do you recommend for fighting someone who is armed with a firearm? This scenario would mainly revolve around carrying a blade and using it against someone armed with a handgun. Obviously taking out your own gun would be the best choice, but barring that, what would you do?

My strategy would mainly consist of de-fanging the snake, hitting the hand or wrist that was holding the weapon, but obviously I would have to be quite close to pull this off.

Does anyone have any other suggestions?

Mike Brewer, your suggestions would be most welcome .

Thanks

[Tom Yum]

In the confusion and chaos, wouldn't there be droves of students running toward the door or some diving under desks?

[Blue Wave Gym]

With all due respect I think most peole would be so startled that the person was in the room with a gun shooting that they'ed either stay low to the floor scared s******* or run. Further more the amount of passiveity that has been instilled in this country for the last 30 plus years i.e. my momie taught me not to hit is realy a disservice to the nation. Now talk about the concentration camp survivor teacher who went into the line of fire to put a desk against the door and was killed he saved countless lives and he knew what evil really is. That's a hero God Rest his soul.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

The first obstacle to overcome is the shooter himself. You have to take away his ability to hit what he's shooting at. Moving, and moving erratically, while closing the gap is a good way of doing this, as is distraction. Throwing things at him while you do it makes it even better, especially if what you're throwing hurts. Nothing fancy; you don't need to be able to stick a ball-point pen in his neck from fifteen feet. Just huck stuff at him that interferes with his ability to follow you with the gun and his eyes.

If you're in a group, it helps to have one person set up a good, loud noise or distraction so that the attacker has to divide his attention. When he looks (or shoots, so be careful) at the distraction, blindside him something awful.

Tactical teams have all sorts of entry methods into rooms filled with potential shooters. Most often, no two guys cut the same way in sequence, because it forces the bad guy to divide his attention. He follows the first guy in, and the second guy in shoots him. Individually, it's no different.

If I were in a school setting, I might throw papers to distract, followed by a desk or chair to injure. I might move offline and change elevation so that I'd be harder to hit. If I had something to stick into the guy or cut him with, that beats impact every time, but a stick will work if it's all you have.

Aim for the vitals, and dig deep when you get there. Get ahold of the weapon - defanging is only enough if it lops the whole hand off. Better to control the tool itself by grabbing the slide or cylinder tightly and hitting/cutting/stabbing/biting/beating/etc with murderous intent while you do so.

The bottom line is that you have to overcome the firearm's advantages with audacity, surprise, and violence of action. You have to make the range work for you, not him, and you need for him to be the one reacting. It's an unenviable situation, but not impossible. It does however require intent, training, courage, and resolve.

For what it's worth I just wanted to emphasize a few points. Taking away his ability to hit the target. The target is YOU!!! Don't be a sitting duck! Don't stop moving and change your direction and elevation frequently. Feint your counter direction and use (anything* for) COVER if it's available.

Shouting is a good distraction. "HOLD YOUR FIRE!!" comes to mind. If you can draw any kind of REACTION that causes him to hesitate you bought yourself a few precious MOMENTS to do YOUR thing. (say INITATIVE)

Don't overlook "joining" him on his rampage or "LOOK OUT BEHIND YOU!!" The idea of deception is deeply rooted in the only silat I know. Trick him if you can. Again precious MOMENTS to do your *NEXT thing...

If you are still alive and MOVING when you are close enough for the CRITICAL ATTACHMENT you can expect him to recognize the potential for a disarm. By this I mean that even UNTRAINED shooters will retract the weapon hand to prevent a grappling match over his weapon.

In some cases you can use THAT REACTION to get your ATTACHMENT on his own secondary weapon. Keep that on the list of *options but NOW you need to dispatch your psychopath. If he didn't dump the entire clip trying to shoot you already he still has a bullet with your name on it.

IF you can get your hand on the gun in his hand there are a few things that you should know about hand guns. Revolver or semi-auto?

You might think it's trivial when someone is trying to shoot you dead but you need to prevent him from firing if you can and HITTING his target (YOU) if he can fire it.

I like how you put this part in particular Mr. B. "Better to control the tool itself by grabbing the slide or cylinder tightly and hitting / cutting / stabbing / biting / beating / etc. with murderous intent while you do so".

This is the critical part. The attachment on the weapon can prevent the operation of the weapon IF you know to thumb the hammer or prevent the slide from EJECTING a spent round or reloading a new one.. Same on the cylinder if it can't turn to reload. These can burn your hand when hot or shot so BE CAREFUL!

Taking it away will require leverage and torque or swiftness with heavy impact. His grip might be very tight so use BOTH HANDS and keep that secondary weapon in mind. He might be "monkey trapped" with his primary weapon but he may let it go and draw another... Be ready for *ANYTHING.

A disarm or DEFANG can be as easy as slapping it out of his hand with a forceful blow or not. Be prepared for anything... If you get it away you might lose the attachment so RE-ENGAGE IMMEDIATLY! Beat him over the head with his gun or, if it's still loaded shoot him in the face with it.

That's my two cents and then some but I also want to thank Mr. B for the contribution to this topic.

Excellent post!

Read it again everyone!

~R

[Tom Yum]

Good stuff guys, thanks!

[bigboywasim]

The shooter in V Tec had two guns so it is a little trickier. I would try to get away if I can. As you guys heard this guy closed the doors shut. You can jump to the floor if he goes crazy shooting. This guy wanted to kill everyone. He looked around to see who was alive. The few people that survived played dead.

I would distract him with a military line or something. Army sergeant........ or FBI. Try to throw something at him a chair or something. Hide behind teacher’s desk and throw shit. If you get close enough. Grab the gun you can headbutt at this range. If you can I say headbutt like you life depends on it. If you are close enough to grab the gun you can also bite his hand off.

Or you can yell rush this mo fo.

I carry a knife even too school. If I get close I am cutting this guy’s necks off. If you go down someone else can use the knife.

[treelizard]

How about having classroom doors that lock from the inside?

[treelizard]

Yeah, I was just thinking, "What am I going to do when I get my own classroom" and it seems like the things I'd have control over would be:

1. how the desks are arranged
2. what heavy objects I'll have strategtically placed around the room
3. the doors

[DickHardman]

Originally Posted by treelizard

Yeah, I was just thinking, "What am I going to do when I get my own classroom" and it seems like the things I'd have control over would be:

1. how the desks are arranged
2. what heavy objects I'll have strategtically placed around the room
3. the doors

might want to stash some weapons in the room as well. maybe pack some heat in your desk.

[treelizard]

Originally Posted by DickHardman

might want to stash some weapons in the room as well. maybe pack some heat in your desk.

That's a good way to get fired. I was looking at improvised weapons which would have multiple uses as classroom objects. A stapler could be used to staple papers, as well as a nice face decoration for a bad guy. A Snapple bottle could double up as a bottle to drink Snapple from. Stuff like that.

[treelizard]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I know it's a far cry from classroom defense, but a really great book on the subject of close tactics is "The Last Hundred Yards" by H. John Poole. It may be a tough one to find, but well worth perusal. You'll have to think pretty conceptually to apply it to a classroom setting, but I think you're equal to the task.

I'll look for it.

As far as doors, I thought it'd be really sweet if it would lock and unlock from the inside...

[treelizard]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

It'll only get you fired if people know about it...

Or if you fire it first. But in that case, better to stay alive by breaking the rules than to die by obeying them.

Agreed, but I see multiple possibilities for things to go wrong. For example, one of my friends who teaches had her laptop AND her film projector stolen from a *locked* closet. So it might not be the best idea.

[DickHardman]

Originally Posted by treelizard

Agreed, but I see multiple possibilities for things to go wrong. For example, one of my friends who teaches had her laptop AND her film projector stolen from a *locked* closet. So it might not be the best idea.

carry it strapped to your stockings, next your garter belt, under your skirt. thats what chicks in the movies always do anyway....

[FightingEdge]

21 feet... That is a pretty much acceptable distance for a guy with a gun to be safe from a guy with a knife (albeit usually when referring to a holstered firearm).

Some would possibly count on the reaction gap (the time it takes to respond rather than act). But in this guys case he was probably already decided on shooting as opposed to a "good" guy who is waiting for a "cue" to draw and/or fire.

At any rate, a gun fires on a trajectory... a knife can track and cut continuously once contact is made. Closing the gap is the key to taking out the guy with he gun(s). Using whatever entry method is available to close the distance and do whatever your gonna do.

Is a gun better? Is the knife? They both have their strengths and weaknesses and their own contexts of being effective. This discussion is really just an extension of the concept of the 4 ranges of Hand to Hand with the addition of the 5th... Projectiles. (Some may break it down differently).

The trick is getting to your range while limiting your exposure to theirs (whether it be a striker vs. grappler or a knife vs. gun). It all comes down to bridging the gap and working the transitions to your advantage while minimizing theirs.

[tupelobjjdotcom]

humm,,stick/knife vs a gun.... excuse me sir,,don't shoot me just yet,,let me get my knife out, or go look for a stick first.,,,,,you wont have it ready and you'll be dead before you even get your hand back out of your pocket. Better be learning to disarm by hand, or running.
If you do throw some papers or a book at a school shooter, i guarantee he's gonna zoom in on you next.

They say that if we ban guns,,only the criminals will have them,,, it looks like they are the only ones that have them now,, noone ever seems to have a weapon handy then they need it. If you "go out to the car and get your gun",, you won't be able to claim self defense.

That's just some senerios thats been on my mind lately, but keep these "what to do" idea's coming!!!!!