Limb Destruction-Catch, Backhand

[Chad W. Getz]

What do you guys think about the jab catch and backhand to the inner bicep? How succesful are you in working it?

[AWSolis]

Woof Chad!

I am very successful in using this technique. Ron Balicki has a progression that works off the opponent's jab. I will try and find that for you and email you.

[sikal]

Originally posted by Chad W. Getz
What do you guys think about the jab catch and backhand to the inner bicep? How succesful are you in working it?

I've had good luck with it, but when we catch the jab, we hit it with our elbow, then drop the backfist from the vertical elbow. My instructor had us develop it by first having us do it slowly, then as it got built into our "muscle memory" we sped it up a little. Once we were comfortable and controlled with it at a relatively quick speed, the puncher put on gloves (we used street hockey gloves, though I'm sure other types would work as well, maybe better) and we went full speed. In this drill, we weren't really focusing on the backfist follow-up ... but we worked the elbow destruction from various angles (i.e.: vertical, diagonal-up, diagonal-down, horizontal). After the vertical elbow, though, dropping the backfist came pretty naturally and "easily" (as easily as anything ever does at full speed).

Regards, Mike

[Chad W. Getz]

Thanks for the comments guys.

How many of you train/spar with your empty hand to the extent and with the
same mindframe that you do in full contact stickfighting? What's your take
on limb destruction, and it's effectiveness. For example, I know that the
"techniques" can be done live time, I've done them before in some hard
contact drills and sparring. Well, also on occasion, I have got off some
rather nice elbow to the bicep and gunting on an unexpecting James over the
years, and he has been kind enough to still consider me a friend. Anyway,
in comparison to the stick hits, how effective do you think basic catch and
backhand to the bicep is as far as actual destruction? In my experience, I
see it being used to slow his jabs down a bit, but this may be only
effective if you've got someone "boxing" at you. I also see it eing used as
a closing technique to set up the close. I also have high percentage using it on the ground and a little in the clinch. But still, the question remains,
how effective is it, and if there are high percentage destructions that you
find work for you, what do you think about it? Have you ever had it done to you in a sparring situation in striking?

[sikal]

Originally posted by Chad W. Getz
Thanks for the comments guys.

How many of you train/spar with your empty hand to the extent and with the
same mindframe that you do in full contact stickfighting? What's your take
on limb destruction, and it's effectiveness. For example, I know that the
"techniques" can be done live time, I've done them before in some hard
contact drills and sparring. Well, also on occasion, I have got off some
rather nice elbow to the bicep and gunting on an unexpecting James over the
years, and he has been kind enough to still consider me a friend. Anyway,
in comparison to the stick hits, how effective do you think basic catch and
backhand to the bicep is as far as actual destruction? In my experience, I
see it being used to slow his jabs down a bit, but this may be only
effective if you've got someone "boxing" at you. I also see it eing used as
a closing technique to set up the close. I also have high percentage using it on the ground and a little in the clinch. But still, the question remains,
how effective is it, and if there are high percentage destructions that you
find work for you, what do you think about it? Have you ever had it done to you in a sparring situation in striking?

I put destructions in the same "box" as traps. They aren't fight finishers (though if they finish the fight, yee-haw!). They are door-openers. They're methods of opening up the defenses so I can get to the actual work of shutting things down.

So, in that sense, yes they're effective. Would I rely on them for anything more ... no. But in a fight, I'll gladly take anything I get (i.e.: if a destruction ends the fight, fine).

Mike

[LaCoste]

Mr. Solis,

Do you think that you could post the progression on the forum? I think that there are many of us that could benefit from it. Thank you.

Regards,
LaCoste

[Chad W. Getz]

For Your Info...

Here is some of the limb destruction section of the FCH Workout Set 1, 2, and 3.

(Against Jab Sparring)
(Right Lead vs Right Lead)
Controlling Range w/ Lead Vertical Elbow
Cover w/ Lead Vertical Elbow
Long Range Horizontal Elbow Out
Long Range Gunting
Gunting, Jab (optional cross to straight blast)
Gunting, Palm to Face, Pak Sao, and Backhand
(Left Lead vs Right Lead)
Controlling Range w/ Lead Vertical Elbow
Cover w/ Lead Vertical Elbow
Catch and Backhand Bicep
Long Range Backhand
Inner Bicep Jam
(Either Lead)
Hand Sparring with "Horses' Knuckles" (It's a Kung Fu fist name)

Each progression is done against real time jab sparring, where, first:
1. One guy throws jabs only and the other guy does the technique
2. Both guys can jab and both guys can do the technique
3. Both guys add crosses also

By the time crosses are added, It's getting closer to real fighting, and you son't be pulling the limb destructions as much as in the first two methods, and you find your self using the basic ones (the first few).

[AWSolis]

Woof!

Here are the first ten: For the rest, you need to attend a Ron Balicki seminar. His seminars are very similar to Guro Dan's as far as the number of techniques he teaches.

I am also putting the first ten, because I am able to pull off each of these techniques while sparring against an uncooperative opponent.
Here they are:

Lead Hand Series (you are attacking his lead hand)
1) Catch
2) Parry
3) Little scoop and pull
4) Big Scoop (waselik)
5) Jam
6) Inward Horizontal Gunting
7) Vertical Gunting
8) Vertical Gunting backfist the bicep
9) Vertical Gunting uppercut underneath
10) Inward Horizontal gunting backfist bicep

Hope this helps,

[LaCoste]

Mr. Solis and Chad,

Thank you for sharing.

Regards,
LaCoste

[Chad W. Getz]

Just don't tell the old man in Hawaii.

How do you feel about you trying these out and let us know what you think? It's experimentation and evaluation...live.

Thanks if you can.

[hekster]

I don't think I would use it on someone my size or below, unless I was checking to see how serious they were. It's what I would use if I couldn't get past someone's reach.

[MikeJKD]

The backhand destruction, along with most other destructions, are infinitely useful, and to answer the question "do you train it with the same mindset as full-contact stickfighting," that's the only way to train it. Destructions, as I use them, are one of the better ways of beating a bigger guy. Over the years and due in large part to training with Vunak, I've altered the way I throw them now, though. Whenever possible, I like to use bone on bone destructions like the elbow destruction or the raise knee destruction, simply because they take less work on my part and my timing doesn't have to be quite as good. However, throwing destructions into the muscle or nerve definitely has its place. I think that when you're applying them in a "full-contact" mode, though, you need to make some adjustments. The biggest change that I make is that I rarely use the "guiding hand" idea. I prefer not to parry or catch the punch and scissor it, but rather to just lay into the punch as though I were literally punching at the bicep or tricep area. Picture countering a jab with a hard hook to the bicep, just like you were hitting the opponent's head except that the target is different. Does that make sense? Using the guide hand helps learn the tool and it familiarizes you with the line, but if you really want to get the most bang for your buck, don't look at the destruction as a tool unto itself. Look at it instead as another application for your jabs, crosses, hooks, and backfists. When was the last time you were working boxing on a heavy bag and reached up with your free hand to sandwich or scissor the bag to add power? We constantly train for power with our punches, and if you're talking about combativeness, then you have to really want to get the best result with the least effort. That means simplicity, and using what's natural, dependable, and effective. And it means being able to hit like an elephant when you need to. Try it and see what you think. Hope that was useful.
Mike

[Northstorm]

Limb destructions are my primary focus. Instead of going for the head and body, which puts you in reach of the opponents attacks, I devestate their attacking limbs with a birrage of strikes allowing me to then move closer, finishing up with elbow strikes to the shoulder area and knee strikes to the legs, leaving him with little resistance to pooters, arm manipulations and other take-down methods. This can be considered a merciful approach, since you destroy only that portion of the opponent that he attacks you with.

Limb destructions if carried out with speed and follow through leave the opponant with frogs in their muscles that prevent them from extending their arms and legs effectively, allowing you the option of walking away at that point should you be given the option. This in fact does "end a fight" sucessfuly. If they don't give up, you can easily break an arm if you must. There is no need to pummel his face or do internal injuries that are hard to explain to a jury. To attack his weapons only is clearly self-defense.

Northstorm.

[jkdwcguy89]

longest weapon to shortest target... which ever's closest to you, tear it up!
It's all about limb destruction; taking out the weapon he's trying to beat you with, which does many things to the oppnt.. For one, it makes him rethink his strategy and forces him to use another weapon because once you start taking out his primary, he'll be forced to use his secondary, and trietary and so forth until he's beaten... Basically, keep destroying his missiles until he runs out.

Take his body out, leave him defenseless.
Give him no time to retaliate. And when you have him where want him, each time after destroying his limb, go in for it. That might be the forward thrust or the "knock out punch". Limb destruction is mainly a set up to create more set ups which lead up to the end the bout...