Leads, empty hand and with tools

[corwin137]

Have been playing with not just one, but two guys lately that lead with their "weak side forward" (philosophy about how to state this most clearly notwithstanding). When they get a tool in their hand (stick, knife, improvised...) they switch.

Am of the mind myself that one should train both sides with tools and without, but as a basis, have one side forward whether a tool is available or not. Am interested in different perspectives about this, and the philosophy behind it.

More simply- should one train just one side forward regardless of having a tool, and, why or why not? Thanks in advance for any replies.

[corwin137]

Originally Posted by corwin137

...

More simply- should one train just one side forward regardless of having a tool, and, why or why not? Thanks in advance for any replies.

So, lots of views, but no replies. Poorly worded/unclear question? Irrelevant? No opinions or experience either way? Fire my training partners? (Just kidding with that last thing)...

[tribalweapon]

Originally Posted by corwin137

More simply- should one train just one side forward regardless of having a tool, and, why or why not? Thanks in advance for any replies.

My personal preference without a weapon is orthodox. I will play with changing leads on occasion but mostly this is trying to use the Dog Brothers Kali Tudo material. My way of thinking is that I would rather be good with one side forward and halfway decent at the other than halfway decent at both.(If this doesn't make sense then I'm sorry). This comes from a boxing-tkd background I guess.

With a tool it tends to vary with the type and number. If I have one stick I like to go southpaw with the stick in my lead as I have more distance to strike with and I am using my stronger, more coordinated hand. With two I go back to orthodox and try to set up power shots from my rear hand with my front. This always comes back to bite me in the ass however as by focusing on one hand for single stick my left hand suffers when I go double. I also tend to switch a lot when I use staff although I do have a preference for orthodox. The reason for this is that I tend to get the same amount of power from either side with the wide sweeping strokes that I like so it doesn't matter as much.

[corwin137]

Originally Posted by tribalweapon

...
With a tool it tends to vary with the type and number...

So, in terms of encouragements for someone else, you'd indicate that it's largely on personal preference? Wanna make sure I'm reading you right. The other folk that I've talked to indicate the same- that it doesn't matter. To be honest, am not even sure that the issue I'm wondering about is a problem to begin with- it's just counterintuitive to me that a lead not just be dictated but switched during an altercation due to the presence/absence of a tool. Thanks for the reply.

[tribalweapon]

Originally Posted by corwin137

So, in terms of encouragements for someone else, you'd indicate that it's largely on personal preference?

Very much so. Different people find different solutions to the same problem that work well for them. It's kind of a "What works well for me probably won't work as well for you" type thing.

Originally Posted by corwin137

To be honest, am not even sure that the issue I'm wondering about is a problem to begin with- it's just counterintuitive to me that a lead not just be dictated but switched during an altercation due to the presence/absence of a tool. Thanks for the reply.

IMHO if you have such a problem with it, then you are going to have to fix it yourself. If you prefer to fight orthodox without a weapon but southpaw with then you are going to have to change part of your training to fix this so called problem. Either start fighting southpaw without a weapon or work on your weak hand a lot with a weapon. I really don't see another solution.

A lot of what you are seeing probably comes from whatever art these people started in. Most people learn to strike empty hand with their weak hand foreward and then learn weapons work with their strong hand forward. I know I did and that is where my preferences came from.

My boxing coach and TKD instructor both taught weak side forwards using your weak hand to set up the stronger shots. However both my wrestling coach and my JKD/Kali instructor both prefered a strong side forwards lead. My wrestling coach because it made for a faster shot and my JKD/Kali instructor because it put your more coordinated and stronger hand forward, thus giving you a longer reach as well as giving you a better chance to land your shots.

[wsdddoa012]

Well I'll throw in my two cents here: personally I like going with my weak side, to set up an attack with my strong side. But I think it works differently with each individual, you just gotta find what works for you.

[corwin137]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen. The responses I've got both online and in person are the same- that it's probably not a concern for anyone until for some reason it appears it's not working.

Couple more questions, if you can stand it: is this going to be true from all ranges of combat? For instance, at long or medium range with sticks, clashing/crashing, and needing to include punches/kicks/knees/traps? How about for weapon draws/access? For instance, what if you lead left side forward kickboxing range, then need access and use of a tool that's in your right (rear, in this case) pocket/hip whatever in the middle of an altercation? Not simply trying to play Devil's advocate, just some of the things I wonder about the issue being counterintuitive to me.

If I get any interesting replies from elsewhere, I'll update. Thanks again for indulging me...

[tribalweapon]

Originally Posted by corwin137

Couple more questions, if you can stand it: is this going to be true from all ranges of combat? For instance, at long or medium range with sticks, clashing/crashing, and needing to include punches/kicks/knees/traps?

Ok, I'm a bit confused here. Are you asking if the lead preference is still going to apply at these ranges?

Originally Posted by corwin137

How about for weapon draws/access? For instance, what if you lead left side forward kickboxing range, then need access and use of a tool that's in your right (rear, in this case) pocket/hip whatever in the middle of an altercation? Not simply trying to play Devil's advocate, just some of the things I wonder about the issue being counterintuitive to me.

This problem seems very situational but here goes. So, basically, I'm in a fight, standing orthodox, and something happens so that I need to retrieve something from my back pocket(say telescoping baton). While watching my opponent(s) I reach back with my right hand, pull it out, and extend it.(wow, that could sound very dirty taken out of context). Now I have my weapon in my prefered hand but said hand is in my unprefered lead when it comes to using a weapon.

Personally, I work this type of stance with a stick everytime I train so my answer would depend on what the other guy does. If he charges, I defend, counter, and step back into my prefered lead while he is stunned. If he doesn't then I skip directly to stepping back into my prefered lead. All this is even assuming I get the chance and his buddies don't start using my head for target practice.

All this is heresay however, because no one knows how a fight is going to go. Even the most technical boxing matches are still just a kind of organized chaos, albeit very organized.

[corwin137]

Originally Posted by tribalweapon

Ok, I'm a bit confused here. Are you asking if the lead preference is still going to apply at these ranges?


This problem seems very situational but here goes. So, basically, I'm in a fight, standing orthodox, and something happens so that I need to retrieve something from my back pocket(say telescoping baton). While watching my opponent(s) I reach back with my right hand, pull it out, and extend it.(wow, that could sound very dirty taken out of context). Now I have my weapon in my prefered hand but said hand is in my unprefered lead when it comes to using a weapon.

Personally, I work this type of stance with a stick everytime I train so my answer would depend on what the other guy does. If he charges, I defend, counter, and step back into my prefered lead while he is stunned. If he doesn't then I skip directly to stepping back into my prefered lead. All this is even assuming I get the chance and his buddies don't start using my head for target practice.

All this is heresay however, because no one knows how a fight is going to go. Even the most technical boxing matches are still just a kind of organized chaos, albeit very organized.

On your first question, am asking if the lead is going to be a problem in that context. If you're using a tool and for some reason you need to use kickboxing skills in the process, you're no longer in your preferred lead. We sometimes get tied up, or simply want to use other tools available, and were someone to use two different leads depending on the presence of the tool, for that moment they'd no longer be in their preferred lead. Maybe not a problem still, but curious.

As for your other description of obtaining a tool mid-flow, that's pretty much what I was getting at. That's in your second paragraph. So the question would be, do you think that's a problem? If so, should a person train the same stance regardless in the context of this sort of a concern that we're describing.

My sense still, is that it's probably not a problem, but I'd still encourage a person to train one side forward, tool or not. Thanks TW...

[tribalweapon]

Originally Posted by corwin137

On your first question, am asking if the lead is going to be a problem in that context. If you're using a tool and for some reason you need to use kickboxing skills in the process, you're no longer in your preferred lead.

You may no longer be in your prefered lead but I have never noticed that much of a difference between a switch step kick and a rear leg kick off of the same leg that I would consider it a problem. So, IMO, no it would be that much of a problem. Or at least not one that couldn't be fixed by the occasional day of off lead training.

Originally Posted by corwin137

So the question would be, do you think that's a problem? If so, should a person train the same stance regardless in the context of this sort of a concern that we're describing.

For the average person, training one stance per situation (i.e. armed and unarmed) is perfectly fine as the chances of most well trained people getting into a fight are fairly slim if they try to avoid it. Add to that, that the chances of getting into a fight with someone who knows what they are doing are even slimmer and I really don't see a problem.

Now if you are like most of the people on this board seem to be, and you want to cover all of your bases then by all means take up some off lead training.

[Rudy Franco]

Corwin,

No problem just focus on what you need to work on and maintain your foundational structure. Sometimes, when you spar with people of different skill levels, especially if they are better than you it is easy to chase that skill level based on ones own competitive spirit, so it is easy to lose focus in training. Since, I focus on self defense, I train to be able to deter, avoid, or respond to all sorts of explosive violent attack using my lead units with and without weapons (let's not forget weapons presentation). We do believe in training both hands equally, but in todays world of shrinking training time, we prefer to focus on the needs of the individual.

take care,

Rudy Franco

[corwin137]

Thanks TW and Rudy (what are you going by Rudy? Sifu? Coach? Wanna give you the apropos due your skills deserve). Am with both of you, and appreciate your time with me banging the idea around.

On a related note- glad Rudy that you mentioned access, presentation and the like. As you're of course painfully aware (and railing against!), sometimes people don't train those sorts of things.

So, will just watch my partners switch up their leads, maintain mine when called for, and observe what happens. Thanks for the replies gentlemen.

[Rudy Franco]

Originally Posted by corwin137

Thanks TW and Rudy (what are you going by Rudy? Sifu? Coach? Wanna give you the apropos due your skills deserve). Am with both of you, and appreciate your time with me banging the idea around.

On a related note- glad Rudy that you mentioned access, presentation and the like. As you're of course painfully aware (and railing against!), sometimes people don't train those sorts of things.

So, will just watch my partners switch up their leads, maintain mine when called for, and observe what happens. Thanks for the replies gentlemen.

Corwin,

Thanks for the props and I am not a big fan of titles.
I take my lead from Coach Lloyd Kennedy, he has been called master, shihan, sensei, sifu, punang guro and the like,but he prefers to be simply called Lloyd and If you must call him a title Coach. I have been called sensei,sifu, guro, but you can just call me Rudy and if you hang long enough you can call me friend.

Later it's class time again,

Rudy

[corwin137]

Thanks Mike. Glad someone mentioned important issues of access/deployment, awareness/prevention and such. Beating a dead horse, I'm with you, Rudy and TW- training both sides is good, personal preference is sticking to one, in terms of encouragements to others... up to them.

[g-bells]

i train from both sides because you may not be able to get into your perfered stance. i do spend 75/25 ratio why risk not being prepared and working both sides will make your footwork better