which is better jkd conepts or the original

[g-bells]

alot of those drills are done for the advancement in feeling an OP's energy/pressures

so you are arguing that a man who is certified under mr. insantos?

and for that armbar........... before you snap my arm, i'll definately take a big bit out of whatever happens to be closest

[Thai Bri]

I don't care who is certified by who. Couldn't care less.

Get them in a MMA arena (the street would be better, but hardly legal.....) and see what happens. No chi sao. No Hubud. In fact NOTHING that people who have never done these drills in their life wouldn't do.

[g-bells]

Originally Posted by Thai Bri

I don't care who is certified by who. Couldn't care less.

Get them in a MMA arena (the street would be better, but hardly legal.....) and see what happens. No chi sao. No Hubud. In fact NOTHING that people who have never done these drills in their life wouldn't do.

he was an instructor to the US Navy Seals for over 12yrs, now i can't comment on his integrity< promoting his business and such> but his skill level is top notch

once agin the drills are used for obtaining "feel", no your not going to get into a hubid contest in the streets but i am certain the energy gained from using them is immeasurable. if you have never touched hands with someone of his caliber then you can't understand because you have to feel it to get it

f**k the MMA arena.... try it on the streets, and it does work i have used it and it has worked for me

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Thai Bri

I love this argument, and have had it many times.

See all those silly drills..... chi saos and hubuds etc. Also see how you never see anything like it in a fight.

So guess what? Ordinary grappling, or simply grabbing an arm becomes the so called end result. And, of course, people who have never done a chi sao hubud drill in their life do it!

Haw haw haw!

Having read your other posts I don’t believe that you aren’t smart enough to understand the difference between a training method and practical application, I think you are oversimplifying the issue.

I’ll be honest, having done drills like chi sao and hubud for 15 years I do on many occasions wonder why I am bothering, surely time would be better spent sparring or rolling. But its very easy to forget the early days of your training, when those drills were of huge benefit to me in helping put my hand to eye co-ordination together and improve my sense of touch at close range. Have I ever “used hubud or chi sao” in a fight? No, never. Then again I have never used a focus mitt, a push up, or a dumbbell in a fight, well OK maybe the dumbbell but it was a very small one and in a sock.

The issue with sensitivity drills is their results are hard to measure, as g-bells rightly says. We can all see and feel the benefits of strength, endurance, conditioning so people don’t question the use of weights, running, thai pad work, rolling etc. Sensitivity forms such a small portion of a possible altercation, its a hard one to nail down – but I don’t agree in it’s outright dismissal. I have trapped in “the street”. Not complex, compound trapping as you see on the DVDs, just single, simple traps that can work well, especially when you are trying to get your hands on someone to calm them down. Right place, right time, right person – but its not something I have ever majored on or tried to overuse.

In terms of the old skool argument about why trapping isn’t seen in NHB, and by trapping I will stick to the classical definition and not kop out by changing it, I think any smart fighter knows that its just not the right toolset for that arena. That doesn’t make it a waste of time.

[Thai Bri]

But Michael - whether you have used that training method or not, all real fights end up looking very similar. The "sensitivity" guys don't fight any differently.

As for NHB "not being the right arena" for trapping........ in what way is the street the "right arena" for it, and are there any clips on any site anywhere that shows someone using it to good advantage?

Don't forget, grabbing an arm here and there, or re-defining "trapping" as grappling doesn't count.

g-bells, you said "once agin the drills are used for obtaining "feel", no your not going to get into a hubid contest in the streets but i am certain the energy gained from using them is immeasurable."

What makes you so certain? Where is your evidence?

Now I have also "felt" trapping..... in a training arena where we were told to trap. But when the limited rules sparring was on, I felt none of it because nobody used it.

This fancy trapping is a very enjoyable training method, and it look soooo cool! But as far as functional fighting is concerned? It is just a waste of your training time.

[Michael Wright]

But Michael - whether you have used that training method or not, all real fights end up looking very similar. The "sensitivity" guys don't fight any differently.

On the whole, as a generalisation, I agree with you Bri. However there are a few exceptional people I have trained with who do fight differently due to their sensitivity - but I know they are a minority. Has hubud or chi sao made me a more effective fighter? The honest answer is I don't know, and I will re-iterate that trapping would never be my first choice.

As for NHB "not being the right arena" for trapping........ in what way is the street the "right arena" for it, and are there any clips on any site anywhere that shows someone using it to good advantage?

I don't know mate, the difficulty is that combat athletics are constantly filmed, street altercations aren't. I hope we haven't reached the stage in martial arts where something has to be on You Tube before it is considered practical. Like I say, I have used a very small amount of trapping on a few isolated occassions, and when kept simple it can work well (if you have trained it right).

Don't forget, grabbing an arm here and there, or re-defining "trapping" as grappling doesn't count.

I deliberately made that point at the end of my post, I know the kind of trapping you are talking about.

From a personal point of view, I'm not putting up a big defence on trapping or energy drills. As someone who spends most of their time now as a boxer, the limitations of many of the things I have been taught have been brought into context for me.

However, the point of my post is that I have, and still do, train with people who's energy and sensitivity are superb and they DO make it work (Paul Vunak, Neil Mcleod and Erik Paulson are three people who have trapped me up in sparring). I sound like a stuck record on this, but martial arts isn't about the what, its about the who. (not the band, Townsend's Pak Sau is sloppy at best)

[Thai Bri]

Good points all round.

Let's get back to Rudy's thread for an argument!

[g-bells]

Originally Posted by Thai Bri

But Michael - whether you have used that training method or not, all real fights end up looking very similar. The "sensitivity" guys don't fight any differently.

As for NHB "not being the right arena" for trapping........ in what way is the street the "right arena" for it, and are there any clips on any site anywhere that shows someone using it to good advantage?

Don't forget, grabbing an arm here and there, or re-defining "trapping" as grappling doesn't count.

g-bells, you said "once agin the drills are used for obtaining "feel", no your not going to get into a hubid contest in the streets but i am certain the energy gained from using them is immeasurable."

What makes you so certain? Where is your evidence?

Now I have also "felt" trapping..... in a training arena where we were told to trap. But when the limited rules sparring was on, I felt none of it because nobody used it.

This fancy trapping is a very enjoyable training method, and it look soooo cool! But as far as functional fighting is concerned? It is just a waste of your training time.

what makes me so certain?

i have used simple traps in altercations!!!!!!!!!

example: a guy jumped me, as he was throwing his hay-maker i stepped in for head control but he held out his hands, i simply trapped his hands down, spun him around and proceeded re-educated him on why one should'nt jump just anybody.

as it has been stated by both mikes' , it does take time to get it but IMHO it's worth it.

i am not talking about the fancy for show trapping, but the straight forward simple traps

as for not knowing the difference in a real fight between a "sensitive" fighter", well maybe the subtle moves may not be as easily for some.

TB- not meaning to be confrontational , just trying to give you a different perspective , if it is coming off the wrong way don't hold it against me

[Thai Bri]

I know. What a turd.

g-bells. If it works for you, then fine. Especially if you enjoy training it! But, for me, there are more efficient and effective training methods and techniques.

It's a bit like training to run a marathon on your hands. Sure, one day you may well manage it but, even then, a novice running on their feet is going to beat ya!

[g-bells]

i'm not sure what you ment by tyhat whole analogy but you have no clue about it so why even bother

[Ghost]

there is a difference between sensitiity drills and trapping isnt there.
most martial arts use sensitivity drills in one form or another and i beleive they work.

In thai boxing there are several sensitivity drills, for instance a common drill is to place palms on the thai pads and the padman provides resistance. at times he will releive some pressure on one side at random, you then elbow strike off this side, pivoting on their resisting side. this is specifically a sensitivity drill and ive used it at several gyms in thailand and at the one i go to in the uk.
there are more but thats just an example to show it doesnt just exist in kung fu.

[g-bells]

yes , but the drills give you the feeling for the opening and i'm sure all arts have drills for that purpose

TB- from his posts is under the belief that it does'nt work and can be rendered ineffective by anyone

[eXcessiveForce]

I am a bit non traditional, I learned sparring and added trapping to sparring, never really did drills.

I know what hubud is but probably have never spent more than an hour total working on it.

Only recently have I been doing any reference point stuff, and that has been to show others how to do stuff so they aren't beaten senseless in sparring.

I couldn't do a trapping drill to save my life. But I do know in a situation with resisting opponents who have not done much training in trapping it is often very easy to pull off Paks, Split entries, Lops, double paks, juts and jao's

When both people have trained in trapping, then you start having trouble pulling off anything but the most simple traps. Mostly because both people have learned to defend and not give those types of openings.

Trapping works on those who don't know any of it, because it happens so fast they don't even realize what happen.

If it works they only know that they got hit.

our small group has been trying it out on MMA fighters we are acquainted with, as well as non martial artists and all of a sudden we find that even complex traps start to work, stuff we would never try on each other

[Blue Wave Gym]

boxers also utilize trapping for that matter
a simple trap can be: you throw out a jab and your OP blocks/parries it and you pak sao while simultaneously hit[/quote]

you make a valid pont however in boxing the correct response to a jab is either the catch or a slip not a "block'' or even a parry that is just bad boxing
i.m.h.o.
if you are speaking about a non boxing person blocking or parrying my jab the point is just as valid blocking=exposure
parrying=openig up your guard too much
the catch is much better in boxing, mma and self defense
I thank you for your thoughfulness in your response as i really just want this question answered once and for all

[Blue Wave Gym]

I still think just a simple grappling clinch move would be better than a trap. I think my confusion comes from the fallacy of ranges i.e kicking range puching range trapping range grappling range
BECAUSE:
every range is kicking range: skipping kicks at a distance, low or mid kicks before or when in punching range, pushing front kicks to get someone off of you when they are right next to you
straight and hook punches are thrown at different ranges plus you can be punched in the mount
every range is grappling range from a shot to a clinch/tie up to a throw
this is such a weapon a mass confusion
Can't we say that we can apply most tools at any range instead of this shooting-kickboxing-boxing-trapping/clinching/throwing/takedowns/ground grappling and striking.
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrg the last time the word "range" made any sense to me was when I was at the rifle range but wait there are long guns and hand guns and both can be used at close "range" or long "range"
I had a point now I have a headache.