which is better jkd conepts or the original

[g-bells]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

No, Bri. He's arguing the point. Not missing, not ignoring; rather, offering up a different point to refute yours.

Or did you miss his point?

mr brewer,
his cup must be full, so no sense in arguing with a master

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Thai Bri

No. I am right, and you are wrong.

There. Thats decided.

LOL

Bri has spoken! end of subject, he wins.


Thread killer.

[Happy Cat]

Garland,

I watched the video, saw the Kali. Very good Kali. But why don't we just call it Kali. Otherwise lets just say "consepts JKD." Bruce never taught anything like that.

As for waht is better, Origonal or consepts: Both are exelent self defense systemes, but they are very diferent from one another. The fact that both use the name JKD is confusing to the public and to the martial arts community.

[Garland]

Originally Posted by Happy Cat

Garland,

I watched the video, saw the Kali. Very good Kali. But why don't we just call it Kali. Otherwise lets just say "consepts JKD." Bruce never taught anything like that.

As for waht is better, Origonal or consepts: Both are exelent self defense systemes, but they are very diferent from one another. The fact that both use the name JKD is confusing to the public and to the martial arts community.

Well...that's because the discrepency is in WHAT JKD is. To the JKD Concepts people it means JKD is a system of philosophies and concepts that can be used as a framework to build onto using a multifaceted tool set comprised of things from different places.

"Original" is schizmed within itself, there are sub-branches of the Jun Fan Gung Fu only crowd, which I am personally not familiar with, because I see it as an impractical and less functional system.

So...
JKD is not the tool being presented, it is the framework. And JKD Concepts people usually pick the best tools from the most functional systems, instead of something like; feign-jeet tek, pak-da-lop sao, cross, right kick...
It'll be something maleable and adaptive.

[Happy Cat]

You are confusing the meaning of the words. Original does not mean unadaptable. JKD was always adaptable If some of the old students are trying to copy Bruce, then more power to them. But that is not what JKD is about. It is about adaptability and individuality.

It is interesting that all the "Concepts" individuals just happen to be on the same road to kali, yet they lecture about individuality.

But you really lose me when you say you are moving beyond Bruce. Maybe you are a martial arts genius, but I am tired of every joker telling me that they have gone beyond Lee.

Last week a Wing Chung guy told me that Bruce would have been good if only he had studied more wing chug. But perhaps that is human nature.

To paraphrase Bruce, unless you have three legs and three hands, the methods of defeating you are not going to change much. If you think Bruce did not know about ju jitsu and Indonesia you are kidding yourself.

So I will stick with the ba jong. The origonal thread heare was which is beter "O" or "C." Of course I like "O", but I will not say it is better. A lot depeds on the person and the aplication. But Bruce was right, it is the name that is causing the fuss. What is JKD to you is not JKD to me and what is JKD to me is not optimal for you.

Try this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srvKE_Y0bUQ

[eXcessiveForce]

Do you not believe that if there is value in something others will use it?

So if the concepts group has found value in Kali, does it not make equal sense that many people in this group will also find value.

A punch is still just a punch, and a kick is still just a kick, and Bruce was just a man.

[Happy Cat]

You guys know the history. Bruce told Dan to stop teaching JKD, except to a small group of students. So Dan taught Kali. Add a few decades and everyone is doing kali. They think it is because they have "progressed." But it was Dan's decisishion. If Dan had chosen Akido, guess what all the "Consepts" people would have "progressed" to.

And saying my side kick is from 1964 will not make it any less effective. And yes, we train against Ju Jitsu, and evertything else that we can get our hands on.

Having said all of that, I do respect that "consepts" is to be taken seriously. You guys, as a group, are not a joke. But don't tell me how you have moved beyond the beyond.

[Michael Wright]

Happy Cat,

First a small word of advice. You might want to listen to Mr Brewer, and don’t feel the need to tell him what JKD is and isn’t. The man has been there for decades and trained with the very best in JKD, including the people you choose to quote at him in your posts.

I trained in what you call OJKD for years, I was a member of the Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do Nucleus. I loved the training, I love the original Jun Fan arts, and I respect all of the 1st Generation students I studied under. Due to a move in location I found what you refer to as a JKD Concepts school, and from that point forward I have trained in this system under Guro Inosanto. So I have experienced both sides from the direct source, and therefore feel I can offer a balanced view to some of your points.

Individuality is absolutely prevalent in JKD Concepts, all of my teachers are different, all of them have their own way of doing things, and they have always encouraged me to do so also. Go train with Rick Faye, then go to Erik Paulson, then try Paul Vunak and tell me you don’t see the individuality. Also tell me that these people don’t teach excellent Jun Fan, just because you develop beyond one art does not mean that you lose proficiency in that art. But either way do me a favour, do the training with these people first – then share your views and maybe I’ll be interested.

I have never, ever met a teacher in Concepts that has ever expressed the opinion that they have “moved beyond Bruce Lee”. Its like Mr Brewer said, they are exploring beyond his material – not the man. Guro Inosanto reveres Mr Lee to the highest level to this day, as do all of his students I have ever met.

In the JKD Concepts family under Guro Inosanto you will be hard pushed to find a more adamant supporter of the original Jun Fan arts than me, they are the non-negotiable foundation for all of my students wanting to understand JKD. If I felt you had come on here to push the positive aspects of Jun Fan (or OJKD, call it what you will) then I would be right behind you. But like so many people I met in the OJKD days you base all of your statements on negative references to Concepts and Mr Inosanto, statements based on complete and total ignorance of our actual training methods. So you stick to your Bai Jong sir and good for you, but don’t type a load of garbage about what Guro Inosanto has and hasn’t done to JKD - because you weren’t there, you aren’t there now, and you don’t know.

[Happy Cat]

Look, I made all of my coments with respect. But when I get a reply like that from Michal Wright, I must think that my simple coment hit a nerve. Can't take the heat Michal? Why is it that the "O" and "C" guys get so caught up in the mine is biger than yours game.

As for Brewer, you make some good points, and out of resect I am trying not to push it. But if you keep telling me how out of date "O" is I will respond. Yes my side kick is from 1964 Lee invented it then. Your Kali is from 1864. So who is out of date?

[Garland]

Originally Posted by Happy Cat

Having said all of that, I do respect that "consepts" is to be taken seriously. You guys, as a group, are not a joke. But don't tell me how you have moved beyond the beyond.

Beyond the beyond? What the ****? SPEAK PLAINLY. And stop acting like you know the score.

[g-bells]

My question is this, if you have the "base" of JDK and then you add what "you" feel works for you, whether it be Kali,BBJ,judo or whatever is'nt the the idea. Be true to the roots but then you need to find your own path.

just my 2 cents for what it's worth

[Ghost]

yeah but the point of saying jack of all trades and master of none is that a JKD guy(in the eyes of this theory) cant beat someone in their own range who has similar training in a base system etc.

for example you would expect a boxer to beat a JKD guy with similar strength stamina etc and training time in punching range, a bjj guy to beat them on the floor etc. this is all assuming they have the same quality of tuition etc, its a theoretical assumption, of course you cant test this.

So alot of people suggest that you find a base before you study JKD, JKD after all is a principal. I personally rate JKD instructors that have mastered 2 or more systems over those that have followed the instructors that have already been through that process and teach what they think works though this is fine if you have mastered 1 system at least yourself.

If you havent studied a system alone then how can you know what works for you if you only studied what a JKD instructor says works from that system.

The way you can do it, is if you train with a variety of instructors that specialize in their systems at the same time. like a good boxing instructor and a good bjj instructor.

Im not personally keen on the JKD schools that teach JKD as a system that claims to have the answer already.

[Garland]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

When you cut through the crap, Linkin Park said it best:

In the end, it doesn't even matter.

Mike...say it ain't so...
Linkin Park?

...


...
icky.

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Happy Cat

Look, I made all of my coments with respect. But when I get a reply like that from Michal Wright, I must think that my simple coment hit a nerve. Can't take the heat Michal? Why is it that the "O" and "C" guys get so caught up in the mine is biger than yours game.

As for Brewer, you make some good points, and out of resect I am trying not to push it. But if you keep telling me how out of date "O" is I will respond. Yes my side kick is from 1964 Lee invented it then. Your Kali is from 1864. So who is out of date?

The person who came on here talking about “O” vs “C” is you, so don’t cop out. I challenged your views, which is probably what you don’t like about my response, but that’s what a debate is. Don’t come on a JKD forum making the kind of points that you are, and not expect to get challenged. Did you hit a nerve? Of course you did, I believe you are talking garbage about an art and an instructor that I care about and respect greatly, so I’m going to call you on it.

If you don’t like the fact that I speak plainly I don’t care to be honest. I don’t like that fact that you make derogatory comments about my art and my teacher, then think you can shroud them by using phrases like “I make all of my comments with respect”. Respect is inherent in what you say, not an afterthought you can tag on the end to buy favour.

I have backed up all of my points with training experiences from the people involved, so far I have heard jack from you on that front. Like Mike said, you are making statements about Concepts and those who teach it without offering any foundation for your opinions. So don’t get all sensitive just because someone has challenged your point of view, come back and substantiate your argument with real life training experience, and I’ll listen to what you have to say.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

True, and I'm not keen on that either. The part that the Jack of all trades folks forget is that someone with all ranges accessible to them don't have to fight a boxing master in boxing range, or a BJJ guy in BJJ range. I think we've showed in numerous instances how it can really get you hurt if you step in a ring with only one game plan (see the defeats of all those Gracies at the hands of people like Hughes, Sakuraba, and Kid), and the defeats of loads and loads of boxers at the hands of people who didn't fight in boxing range. Remember Art Jimmerson? Good boxer. Not so great when someone else had other options. It's a story that plays out nearly every time. You see a one-dimensional fighter in against a guy who;s pretty well rounded, and you're going to watch the one-dimensional fighter get his ass kicked. Not everything that's true in sport holds true in the street, but that's one thing that's unequivocably true.

And you're right - training with other specialists is the way to go. That's how Bruce Lee did it, and it worked well for him. Why some people choose to train in what he did instead of using his approach is beyond me.

And Garland,
I'm not saying they're a good band or anything. I just think they happened to hit a pretty lucid point about the whole Original vs Concepts JKD argument. Or didn't you know that's what that whole song was about?

yeah i think we are basically on the same page then.
I agree completely that the advantage is that you dont have to fight that person in their range.

IMO , youd pick your most natural area to be your specialization, like Guru Dan has escrima, you can say Dan is better at escrima than he is at other systems. He is definately not a jack of all trades master of none.
He is a jack of all trades master of escrima.
And that is really my point. The guys that i have come across that are good at JKD arent just jack of all trades, they are master of one or two trades as well.

I dont think you disagree with me, i just wanted to make the point.