Question about proper kick timing

[Aaron04]

I like to use the thigh kick and shuffle kick when sparring, but lately I've been having some trouble with my kicks getting destroyed. Most people are unaware of knee/elbow destructions, but lately I've been having trouble with people lifting their knees and pointing them at my shin when I throw the kick. If the kick were full power, the shin would be destroyed as a result. When a person has their weight shifted onto their targeted leg, it's not possible to lift the knee in time to destroy the kick. However, when their weight is shifted to their rear leg, they can easily lift the knee on the targeted leg to destroy the kick.

So my question is, is there a rule of thumb to predict when their weight is shifting onto their targeted leg, other than the obvious? In other words, is there a preferred "time" to throw a kick to prevent this problem?

Thanks

[Mike Brewer]

If you're training or fighting against someone who's very good with destructions (I'm assuming you've done a little time with Vunak's guys?), the best way of landing your low-line kicks is to use faking and timing. In the timing aspect, you'll need to throw and land your kicks as the opponent is coming in to attack you. If he's caught up in throwing punches of his own, he'll have too much weight on his lead leg, and more importantly too much focus on his attack, and you won't get your shin blown away so much. If he's not committing to an attack, but rather waiting for your kick so he can juice your shin bone, I find it really effective to throw the kick and test the waters. If he looks like he might use destructions, fake him low and stitch him in the teeth with a hard, straight punch or high line combination. Then, fake high and drive the kick in nice and low. You can also change your target from the lead thigh to the inside of the rear shin, knee, or thigh as well. It requires a deeper step (watch out for punching counters), but it looks like a thigh kick, and his destruction will likely clear the way for you to land. I have taken a lot of guys right off their feet throwing this kick at the inside of their support shin/calf area. They pick the lead foot up to use the destruction, and your kick goes low, under the front leg, landing on the rear calf or shin. Biggest thing is to set it up with good fakes to the high line. That means hitting the high line, and a guy who likes using low-line destructions sometimes makes that easy for you. Fake low, get him to lift his leg, and drill him up high. Then you can fake high all day and he'll bite.

[Aaron04]

Thanks Mike. I've pretty much worked out all the bugs in my game except for this one (at least so far). As far as doing a little time with some of Vunak's guys, actually I am one of them myself, but guys I spar with are beginning to catch on to the low line destruction game. I like using the low line kicks to keep people out in longer range, as I don't like to fight in the "blow trading range". So as a result, I like to be very mobile, up on my toes, and constantly moving as my opponent closes the distance, then I like to use an interception or destruction on him as he gets closer. This strategy has worked very well for me, and the only problem I'm having with it is with my kicks getting destroyed. What I've been doing lately is feinting with a few kicks to see what their response will be, and if it's going to be a destruction, it makes me not want to throw the kick. This causes a problem if they don't throw anything of their own, because then there is nothing for me to use a destruction on, and it sometimes allows a person to get close enough to me to where blow-trading can happen. When it does, I usually go for a basic boxing combo, or go straight into the straight blast if it's possible. While I don't have a problem with the occasional bout of blow trading, I seriously try to avoid it because I don't want to trade blows with a potentially larger and stronger opponent.

I know you've trained with Vunak extensively, so I'm sure you know what I'm referring to as far as not wanting to trade blows. I've got it worked out to where the only time I have to do that is when someone is aware of and uses knee destructions on my thigh and groin kicks. Other than that, I've found it to be relatively easy to simply destroy my opponents punches and kicks, when he throws them from long range, or simply intercept his attack as he moves forward to get into closer range (by using a thigh or shuffle kick). I've had almost magical success with this strategy, but now it isn't so easy to stop someone from moving into kickboxing range when I can't throw a well placed thigh or shuffle kick at him. So lately what I've been trying to do is to time the kick to where he is stepping forward, closing the distance, and time the kick to where his weight is on it. I'm well aware of the danger in moving forward, forcing the interception on someone, and I'm more passive in that regard, but still I'm having some trouble with it. Do you have any ideas as to how to time the kick better?

Thanks

[Ghost]

mate, if you can kick them or block their kick they can punch you, knee you and clinch you.
You are trying to beat someone with kicking because you dont like going in close.
You are doing the wrong thing trying to polish off your kicking game, you should be addressing your close range issues, imo.

[Aaron04]

I think I've thought of a more simple way to describe my problem. Basically I like to stay out in long range, and when my opponent moves in, he's usually hitting, and I simply use the knee or elbow destructions to destroy the incoming blow. When he moves in and he's not hitting, I like to intercept with the low line kicks. The problem is when he's moving in, and he's not hitting, and I use an interception (kick), but he uses a destruction of his own. The best solution I've found to this problem is to test him with a few fake low line kicks. If he is inclined to use a destruction, I usually will shuffle in on him as he is moving forward, and hit him with a jab, to knock him back out into long range. At that point, it's very true that you can fake on the high line, and more easily land a kick on the low line.

I was just wondering if anyone had any other ideas?

Thanks again

[Ghost]

You are worried about getting hurt period, it would appear.
I dont worry at all about people using destructions, you just have to get on with it mate. you cant expect to have a fight where the other guy never manages to block you.
kicks are way too easy to defend against for you to try and make a reliable strategy with that involves them never using a destruction.

I understand what you are saying, that you want to be able to tell when they will use it. But its a fairly triggerless movement. a good way if they use it alot is to turn your low kick into a low line sweep.

if you catch their defending leg near the foot area their leg will bend at the knee and if you continue to the leg they are standing on they will end up on their ass.

you can always pull the kick if they block and counter punch on the half beat as well.

my personal view as i stated before is to use full force against their destruction and keep going at it with a no fear approach.

In thai boxing you will often see a thai boxer hack away at a leg regardless of any destruction or not. your mind against theirs. ive experienced people stop blocking due to the pain of their blocks being kicked with full force. this will hurt you more than them but its a state of mind. Imagine going agaisnt a guy that doesnt give a damn about your destructions and just hacks away at any defense you offer. not much fun. and winning is the aim of the game.

Anyway, i would still state that your plan is too precise, you need to be able to fight in any range, and not be saying "this is my game plan" because as we know,"everyone has a plan until they get hit"

I personally cant see you win many fights with a long range strategy, especially in a street fight where you may well not be lucky enough to have the luxury of range and space to move in.

what are you training for out of interest?

[Ghost]

to give you more of an idea what i mean...

If you are serious about a long range kicking game, as a tactic, you have to be balls out, obviously you want to finish the fight and not mess around for a long time, and if your space is limited you dont have the luxury of timing this and that so you dont get blocked, you will have to be aggressive and fearless.
If you cant do that then they WILL break your range. a good long range game with kicking requires intense levels of aggression. Forcing someone else to block or defend creates time for you, in long range you need that time in order to maintain range.

You may well have seen Buakaw before but ill link you a clip, this thai boxer is a long range kicker, this is the ring however, but it shows you how aggressive you have to be in order to maintain range and that issues of them blocking cant affect your fighting, you just have to kick anyway, in this way, if you can get your mind round to this, you can be successful with this strategy. the smaller the space you are in the more aggressive you will need to be in order to maintain that range.
Have a watch, the first min is promo nonsense but then you will see what i mean a bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=einZ010-cb0

[Aaron04]

Thanks Ghost. As far as destructions are concerned, I don't think it's so much a matter of will or pain tolerance, as it is the physical destruction of the bone(s). I'm thinking that you are thinking of a different type of destruction than what I am referring to. The type I'm referring to is when you point the cap of your knee directly at the center of the person's shin. For the person who is throwing the kick, it would feel like shin kicking a telephone pole. I've had people throw kicks at me (in training) with no power, but they didn't stop them in time, and they nearly broke their leg as a result. In fact, Demi Barbito did this once and actually did break his leg. I've also seen a few videos of this happening on the internet. As far as elbow destructions go, it's the same principal. You put your elbow(s) in front of your face, and when the person throws a punch, you cover with the elbow, allowing the punch to run directly into it. The person throwing the punch would feel like he had just punched a brick wall. In a street fight I was once involved in, this actually happened. He threw a right cross at my face, and I used an elbow destruction on his fist. I actually felt the bones in his hand shatter. When he hit my elbow, instead of his hand bouncing off of it, it kept going. I actually felt his closed fist feel soft and mushy.

As far as ranges go, I do train in all of them. My question regarding proper kick timing was just referring to the long range aspect of it. I wouldn't do very well in the closer ranges if I didn't survive the long range first!

Thanks again

[Ghost]

i know what you mean mate, its from thai boxing what you are doing, the elbow and knee destructions, though we often use the very top of the shin where it joins the knee rather than the knee cap itself, just an inch or two below.
but yeah it wont break your leg unless it is already weak, most of the leg breaks on the net are re-breaks of previous injuries. especially that oh so famous one where he stands on his own leg and it bends after. the guy had previously broken his leg in a car crash and had only recently come out of plaster.


i still say the same thing, kick it, if you want to aim your kick down at the end of your low kick slightly you will hit their shin. a little dip at the end of the kick sees you miss the knee.

and for elbow you mean using the elbow to spike the punch. may exist in other systems as well but thats classic old style muay thai.

[Happy Cat]

Aaron04,

I use the JKD side kick which eliminates any swinging of the shin. Insted it comes straight in, foot first. The power comes in the last couple of inches jut before and during contact. In my opinion this greatly reducess any oportunity for destruction. I would be interested in hearing comments.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Aaron04

You put your elbow(s) in front of your face, and when the person throws a punch, you cover with the elbow, allowing the punch to run directly into it. The person throwing the punch would feel like he had just punched a brick wall. In a street fight I was once involved in, this actually happened. He threw a right cross at my face, and I used an elbow destruction on his fist. I actually felt the bones in his hand shatter. When he hit my elbow, instead of his hand bouncing off of it, it kept going. I actually felt his closed fist feel soft and mushy.

Ouch!


I've used a destruction in boxing (with gloves of course) against a right cross and my partner said it gave him a slight sharp pain down his fist. He was still able to hit with his right hand though. I wondered what it would do if it landed without the glove...your post answered my question.

I prefer to hit with the heel of my palm for that very reason. You give up a few inches in reach but the heel of the palm is so much harder than the knuckles. You can jab, cross or hook a palm heel at full speed into a brick wall and have your hands in good shape.

Doing pushups seems to condition the hands for this.

[Ghost]

the thai boxing elbow destruction against hooks is just nasty, the elbow goes into the forearm and puts that arm completely out of action.

elbow spikes to the straight line punches are good you have to use the redirecting parry with it for it to be reliably effective.

hard defense is great in muay thai but takes a little practice but then so does soft defense.

[kooky]

Believe me when I say that the only thing you'll "destroy" when using your kneecap is your kneecap!

[Mike Brewer]

I don't believe it for a second, Kooky, and I've done it enough to know you're mistaken. If you're aiming your destruction at a well-conditioned shin, then maybe you have to worry about feeling some pain. But if you train to destroy the foot instead, you've nothing at all to worry about in terms of the kick damaging your knee. I've seen multiple leg bones broken, and even more smaller foot bones. It may be that no one has shown you how to do this well, but I can tell you from first-hand observations and many, many years of personal experience that if done properly, it's a very effective tool.

[kooky]

That's cool Mike, although we share some of the same instructors/coaches our experiences differ.... I do agree that aiming for the instep/foot is the way to go. And maybe if whomever is kicking is lacking in develoment, the kneecap may suffice but I stand by my experience. I always try to use the top of the shin or the "head" of the femur.

Happy Halloween.

-Jason Lancucki