To people who don't seem to believe Bruce Lee is the real deal..

[lucidmist]

Originally Posted by jubaji

Oooh, there it is! More of Lucy's scary talk!

jubachicken, you're so easily shaken up. no one's gonna harm you so long as you stay hidden in your chicken farm!

[fire cobra]

I would imagine that the last thing Bruce Lee wanted was for people to erect statues and bow down to him,and speak of him as unbeatable etc,wasnt he against any sort of hero worship?.

And didnt he carry a gun? even he realised he wasnt unbeatable eh?.

Looking at the JKD world from the outside it sure is confusing and in danger of becoming a classicl mess itself imho.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by lucymissed-again

jubachicken, you're so easily shaken up. no one's gonna harm you so long as you stay hidden in your chicken farm!

I don't know if I can believe you. I mean, you being so scary and all!

[lucidmist]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Lucidmist, whats your interpretation of the Wong Jack Man fight?

An account plus opinions here
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36846

I dont see any harm in dismissing people as fighters that are also Masters.
I have more respect for someone that is totally knowledgeable and can teach.
There are many, many martial artists that can fight really well but dont realy fully get what they are doing and cant teach it for shit.
THis comes back to what i was saying before with teaching and fighitng being two different things. Good techinique and great physical ability dont equal a good fighter, you can check out my thread in open access about what makes a good fighter and see peoples replies to see what i mean.
Meanness and heart came over skill and physical ability for just about everyone i think.
Bruce had skill and physical ability, but as you can see from that thread it doesnt prove a good fighter.

nope, i totally agree that there is no harm dismissing people as fighters. however, bruce did display his abilities via, well, his one-time boxing and even though it was only from people who knew him that we hear about his challenges and street fights, these people weren't the only ones present. with tons of people around, no one would spout rubbish like these, unless what, they bribed everyone on the street/set who witnessed the fights? even bribery would not last forever. after 3 decades, SOMEONE's bound to spill the beans - even if to get some attention. and that could start a forest fire whereby many of the witnesses who knew the supposed truth would start voicing out. but no one's said a concrete word.

as for the wong jack man fight, seriously, i wouldn't know. but i posted this before:

"i read wong's own account of the fight. it was waaayyy too detailed. i've been in numerous fights, and there isn't one that i could remember the opening techniques and moves and whatnots from beginning of the fight till the end.

wong illustrated the fight as if he was a third person, or in this case, a scriptwriter. come on. in the heated fight, in the split second between having to dodge or defend himself, he could see EXACTLY what technique bruce was using, and spell it out??? please. if he was so focused on what shape bruce's hand was taking every few seconds, it is no wonder he got his hat handed to him."

wong was stating the exact technique names and hand angles. i don't know, but everytime when pushed to take a stand, the moment the attacker moves, i move. i don't actually see his fingers or hand-shape (i do watch for hand angles when they hold rods, thankfully no knives, but even for a split-second just to gauge where the path of attack is coming from), i just know that he has moved and where he intends to hit.. and i react. other than that, i really don't memorize the fine details.

[lucidmist]

Originally Posted by jubachicken

I don't know if I can believe you. I mean, you being so scary and all!

it's ok, just stick to layin' eggs like the good hen that you are and you won't get sliced!

[Knuckles&Knees]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

Erm, no I see nothing wrong with it either sir, you know bearing in mind its what I do. I'm a little confused as to the gist of your post?

No, there was no disagreement, I thought your short summary was good and I just added some of my own thoughts to that point you made regarding JKD concepts. I wrote it more for the benefit of other readers and not you. Who my "target audience" was I'm not 100% sure but I wrote as to target whoever maybe "open minded" or "sitting on the fence" regarding both Bruce Lee or JKD.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by lucidmist

nope, i totally agree that there is no harm dismissing people as fighters. however, bruce did display his abilities via, well, his one-time boxing and even though it was only from people who knew him that we hear about his challenges and street fights, these people weren't the only ones present. with tons of people around, no one would spout rubbish like these, unless what, they bribed everyone on the street/set who witnessed the fights? even bribery would not last forever. after 3 decades, SOMEONE's bound to spill the beans - even if to get some attention. and that could start a forest fire whereby many of the witnesses who knew the supposed truth would start voicing out. but no one's said a concrete word.

as for the wong jack man fight, seriously, i wouldn't know. but i posted this before:

"i read wong's own account of the fight. it was waaayyy too detailed. i've been in numerous fights, and there isn't one that i could remember the opening techniques and moves and whatnots from beginning of the fight till the end.

wong illustrated the fight as if he was a third person, or in this case, a scriptwriter. come on. in the heated fight, in the split second between having to dodge or defend himself, he could see EXACTLY what technique bruce was using, and spell it out??? please. if he was so focused on what shape bruce's hand was taking every few seconds, it is no wonder he got his hat handed to him."

wong was stating the exact technique names and hand angles. i don't know, but everytime when pushed to take a stand, the moment the attacker moves, i move. i don't actually see his fingers or hand-shape (i do watch for hand angles when they hold rods, thankfully no knives, but even for a split-second just to gauge where the path of attack is coming from), i just know that he has moved and where he intends to hit.. and i react. other than that, i really don't memorize the fine details.

see that kind of illustrates the point.
Wong's status was pretty high in the community but you questioned what he wrote, rightly so in my opinion.
We know that fight went on for ages, some people state 20 minutes some 10.
it wasnt a quick finish and by some accounts of people he beat bruce but bruce wouldnt give in, wong refused to hurt him badly and so on blah blah.

Not everyone is telling the same story.....which leads to my point on loyalties

If you look at bruce lee and those around him you will find the bruce lee side of things and vice versa. this is why i question, in the same way you question Wong's side of things. I question everything and if i dont see concrete proof i think hang on, we really dont know what the case is, so i wont personally state it as a fact or an assumption.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Originally Posted by lucidmist

knuckles, yeah, there's no such thing as an unbeatable or invincible fighter. everyone is bound to make mistakes at some point, and if the opponent happens to see the opportunity and can be quick enough to take it, that could be (not definitely) the fight-stopping blow.

Yep!

And it's happened more than once in professional boxing where a boxer underestimated his "no named" opponent and got his clock cleaned. No matter how many fights you compile on your record, the potential still exists, some unrecognized guy, perhaps with a lot less fights than you, could come along a stop your parade.

Before some dude named Buster Douglas... Iron Mike Tyson was suppose to be invincible.

You can say this much about Bruce Lee, not only was his power phenomenal, but he stayed in better condition than many amateur or pro boxers. Which in my mind tells me, he was prepared for combat throughout more calendar days of the year than many boxers.

But Bruce never seemed to have acquired the skills associated with a BJJ practitioner or the particular rear leg kick of the Thai fighter, so the lack of those things could and I think would, be major weaknesses for him fighting against any well trained MMA person today.

This does not mean per se that Bruce would automatically lose against any well trained MMA person today in an ally fight. I don't think Bruce would have any objection to kicking his attacker in the knee (breaking the leg) or kicking his ally attacker in the groin with the power of a Mike Tyson upper cut or Babe Ruth at the batting plate. Lights out Billy! Lol.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Originally Posted by Ghost

There are many, many martial artists that can fight really well but dont realy fully get what they are doing and cant teach it for shit.

THis comes back to what i was saying before with teaching and fighitng being two different things.

This I totally agree with! You ain't got to be an NBA star to be a great coach.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Originally Posted by fire cobra

I would imagine that the last thing Bruce Lee wanted was for people to erect statues and bow down to him,and speak of him as unbeatable etc,wasnt he against any sort of hero worship?.

And didnt he carry a gun? even he realised he wasnt unbeatable eh?.

Looking at the JKD world from the outside it sure is confusing and in danger of becoming a classicl mess itself imho.

No more than the cult of Muhammed Ali (e.g. the "phantom punch"). But people from around the world never tire of claiming he was the greatest champ of all time - in a sport notorious for corruption mind you.

[Ghost]

THis is the problem when you get a larger than life character. in any industry.
If you ask people who was the biggest body builder of all time most people will say arnie, when he wouldnt even make it onto the stage at mr olympia compared to todays guys.
Their characters carry them a long, long way, and not really in any bad way usually, but can be misleading.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by lucymissed

it's ok, just stick to layin' eggs like the good hen that you are and you won't get sliced!

"sliced"? Oh man, that's even scarier than before!

[lucidmist]

Originally Posted by Ghost

see that kind of illustrates the point.
Wong's status was pretty high in the community but you questioned what he wrote, rightly so in my opinion.
We know that fight went on for ages, some people state 20 minutes some 10.
it wasnt a quick finish and by some accounts of people he beat bruce but bruce wouldnt give in, wong refused to hurt him badly and so on blah blah.

Not everyone is telling the same story.....which leads to my point on loyalties

If you look at bruce lee and those around him you will find the bruce lee side of things and vice versa. this is why i question, in the same way you question Wong's side of things. I question everything and if i dont see concrete proof i think hang on, we really dont know what the case is, so i wont personally state it as a fact or an assumption.

ghost, i totally get where you're coming from. but remember, i question the fight between wong jack man and bruce lee, but i do not question that both of them can fight. i'm not saying godlike fighting prowess or invincibility, but either way, i'm not dismissing them both as fighters just because of the lack of footage or competitions.

but like i said, i get what you're saying.

[lucidmist]

Originally Posted by Knuckles&Knees

Yep!

And it's happened more than once in professional boxing where a boxer underestimated his "no named" opponent and got his clock cleaned. No matter how many fights you compile on your record, the potential still exists, some unrecognized guy, perhaps with a lot less fights than you, could come along a stop your parade.

Before some dude named Buster Douglas... Iron Mike Tyson was suppose to be invincible.

You can say this much about Bruce Lee, not only was his power phenomenal, but he stayed in better condition than many amateur or pro boxers. Which in my mind tells me, he was prepared for combat throughout more calendar days of the year than many boxers.

But Bruce never seemed to have acquired the skills associated with a BJJ practitioner or the particular rear leg kick of the Thai fighter, so the lack of those things could and I think would, be major weaknesses for him fighting against any well trained MMA person today.

This does not mean per se that Bruce would automatically lose against any well trained MMA person today in an ally fight. I don't think Bruce would have any objection to kicking his attacker in the knee (breaking the leg) or kicking his ally attacker in the groin with the power of a Mike Tyson upper cut or Babe Ruth at the batting plate. Lights out Billy! Lol.

yes.. i would say physically, bruce was ready for plenty.. be it speedwise, power, or reflexes.. and yeah, everyone has his or her own weaknesses... but just a quick question.. in most of the people's experiences here, does groundfighting happen alot? i mean based on non-ring fights. so far, i've only ever encountered one messy groundfight, and it happened slightly after the rain, and the ground was completely slippery so somehow during the tussle we ended up on the ground. and i don't know how it would've ended cos it happened right outside a building, and the security guards enjoyed ten minutes of the "show" before deciding to pull us apart, largely because they had to when the manager suddenly appeared. so.. bjj, is it practical? not slamming, just a question cos i'm really inexperienced in that area.

[lucidmist]

Originally Posted by Ghost

THis is the problem when you get a larger than life character. in any industry.
If you ask people who was the biggest body builder of all time most people will say arnie, when he wouldnt even make it onto the stage at mr olympia compared to todays guys.
Their characters carry them a long, long way, and not really in any bad way usually, but can be misleading.

arnie wouldn't? you mean based on his size over the last few years, or back when during his days as mr. olympia?