Unbeaten

[Bullseye]

In recent years there has been a big upsurge in martial arts instructors detailing their fight records when promoting themselves in the martial arts mags.

I am thinking specifically about guys who teach Reality Based Self Defence. And I'm thinking mostly about English instructors. I haven't seen this phenomenon so much in the martial arts press in the USA.

Without naming names, there are a lot of guys claiming hundreds, and in some cases thousands of fights (streetfights) undefeated.

I was surprised when I started reading this board recently and read stuff about Paul Vunak losing fights. Mike Brewer has "admitted" to losing fights in a recent thread on here as well. The reason I think these examples are noteworthy, is that they are the only examples I can think of where well known instructors have admitted to have lost as well as won.

What do you guys think about guys who claim hundreds of fights undefeated?Is it even feasable?

I am NOT calling people who claim these records liars, I wasn't there and so I don't know. Just that in my old age I am getting more sceptical and suspicious.

[Ghost]

They should prove their fight record.
Mate this happens so much in muay thai as well, i remember the big stink about Russ Connor a few years back who claimed a bunch of fights in thailand and to have broken someones leg with a low kick.
Then he claimed he had it all on video and when we asked to see it his house got burgled and his videos stolen from his loft........yeah....all in the space of about 3 days.
anyway i think his gym shut down off the back of it as his only fighter, micheal showers, who was his pride and glory turned out to have trained elsewhere and just turned up there cos he moved or something. very lame.
Happens all the time as people try to stand out to get more students.
There are honest teachers about though and they are worth seeking. nothing wrong with losing a fight, in fact you probably progress more from a loss than a victory.

[Bullseye]

Hi Ghost,

Would I be correct in assuming you've seen the same ads, and read the same interviews as me? I see you're from London, and we must know the same big names.

From your reply I take it you don't believe the hype?

[Ghost]

no i dont beleive the hype, not sure if ive seen the same ads as you but ive seen many of the things you are describing. load of crap in my opinion. what usually happens is that no one has seen the fights, no one has any record of them save for a few other instructors that happen to be very closely associated, therefore benefit from them.
any chance of you letting me know what ads you are referring to, i live in thailand mate though my home is london.

We even have some gyms i thailand becoming micky mouse gyms. shocking stuff. the amount of people that will beleive someone is an ex ratchadamneon champion just because the person is thai so it "must be true init".
The the majority (99% or so)are still solid, some dodgy stuff going on on the islands.

[Thai Bri]

The fight records these Brits are talking about are fights in the street, where there is no one to verify them. And I don't believe them neither!

Everybody who regularly partakes in ANY competitive activity has lost at some time or other.

And, as for all the hundreds of fights some of them claim...... a great many of those seem to be knocking out 17 year old pencil necked kids who got drunk on their first visit to a pub and mouthed off a bit. Hardly a fight.

I have more respect for those who outline their losses AND demonstrate that they learned from them.

[Bullseye]

Hi Bri,

I post as Bloody Nuisance on self protection dot com. Just so you know who you're having a dialogue with. I think it's more honest. Got registered the other day.

I found what you said interesting. Are you saying you don't believe the stats quoted by the RBSD guys who are prominent at the moment. I don't want to bandy names around, but I mean the well known people who have come to prominence since Watch My Back was published.

Ghost, I was thinking about ads you might see in Martial Arts Illustrated (a UK magazine). But more, I was thinking about what some guys are claiming on the internet, in magazine interviews, or in books.

[Ghost]

i know the kind of thing you mean, i havent seen that magazine for a long time now. its always hard to say for sure but the chances are pretty slim.
I personally couldnt care less if an instructor has fought anyone ever if they have the knowledge and ability to teach it then im happy. i can always train with guys that have fought etc usually at the same gym.

Would be great to ask them who they fought and then try and find 1 of them.

[Michael Wright]

Unfortunately, it’s a classic case of the imitators weakening the reputation of the genuine articles. I have been fortunate enough to meet some men from these shores who I truly do believe have experienced and overcome hundreds of genuine encounters over 10, 15, 20 years of door work. People like Sensei Terry O’Neil, Steve Powell and Mr Geoff Thompson (who, in my personal opinion, is very much the real deal). However, for every one of these gentlemen I agree that there will be 100 others who embellish their history and their record to try and cash in. The notion of hundreds of fights unbeaten is, I would argue, only true for a very few exceptional individuals.

[fire cobra]

Do you UK guys remember the Nick Hewitson case?,claimed he had hundreds of Muay Thai fights in Thailand and several titles etc.

[Ghost]

Yeah, lol, it makes me laugh alot of that stuff, but it also pisses me off greatly. and some point it becomes so stupid its funny.

It amazes me the lengths people will go to, to create false existence in interest of gaining money and respect. some of them get found out, other everyone knows is lieing but no one ever really calls them out properly.

[Bullseye]

I think it's virtually impossible to call someone a fake when talking about their street experiences simply because it's their word against your.

I truly believe Geoff Thompson to be the real deal, but let's say I didn't and I called him out at a seminar. All I could say would be "i don't believe you, you're a liar." But how could I disprove anything?

Just Using Geoff as an example.I repeat I DO think he's the real deal.

Regarding being unbeaten, I think that it's the nature of fighting to lose sometimes, and there's no shame in that. I personally think that we should be training to win (Obviously) but psychiologically prepared to lose if it coms up.

I find a lot of the claims made by very well known instructors to be a bit much sometimes. Doesn't matter how good you are, anyone can have an off day, or simply be unlucky. I think numbers in the hundreds or thousands are very suspect, or the result of very creative accounting.

[Michael Wright]

I think the main thing is Bullseye, who cares what other people claim about all the fights they have and haven't won. My focus is on my own training and the development of my students, I stopped caring about other people's PR a long time ago. The only person that matters in martial arts is the man in the mirror, and I don't mean Michael Jackson.

[Tom Yum]

There are alot of martial arts instructors that can fight, do not talk/boast of fight records and who do not fight in any professional circuit.

Sometimes they get challenged.

I've seen it happen, but the details are private. I've seen some instructor-instructor challenge matches or instructor-random guy matches. I seem to be lucky when I pick out martial arts instruction.

[Thai Bri]

Hi Bri,

I post as Bloody Nuisance on self protection dot com. Just so you know who you're having a dialogue with. I think it's more honest. Got registered the other day.

I found what you said interesting. Are you saying you don't believe the stats quoted by the RBSD guys who are prominent at the moment. I don't want to bandy names around, but I mean the well known people who have come to prominence since Watch My Back was published.

Ghost, I was thinking about ads you might see in Martial Arts Illustrated (a UK magazine). But more, I was thinking about what some guys are claiming on the internet, in magazine interviews, or in books.

I don't believe that Geoff Thompson had 300 "fights" and won them all. He's probably knocked out loads of drunks, and probably had lots of fights too. If he has had 300 "fights" then he must have been a Grade A Arse-hole in his bouncing days. I think much of it is down to having a book to sell......

The martial arts are full of claims that get ridiculously magnified - that's how legends are made in the first place.

I remember a post one the old GT forum where a certain camoflagued tactical cap wearing military wannabe was extolling the skills of Terry O'Neil. He went on about how Terry could take loads of people out at once using classic Karate kicks to the head etc. Now I've never met Terry O'Neil, and I certainly would not want to fight him. But I reckon the claims that his camoflagued mate were making were massively exaggerated.

As regards the Cammo Clown himself he said words to the effect of "I didn't rely on high kicks much myself... I only got about 40 knockouts with them......" What a day dreaming bullshitting nonsense spouting buffoon.

[Tom Yum]

Thai Bri had 300 fights once....





....all of 'em donuts.




He kicked all of their arses using viscious biting techniques, while choke-drowning some of them in black coffee...




bloody brutal I tell you.