Clip-Vunak/Enigma Vid.

[Liberty]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

It's entirely relevant in response to Bri's statement that good material can stand it. He criticised, as he so very often does, a man whose material has not only "stood it," but has contiued to evolve.

Is the argument true of all things in all situations? No. But if you change the context, you change the content. In response to Bri's point, it's totally valid and correct. Your real issue is with Bri's statement, and the idea that only worthwhile ideas last.

No disrespect to you, Mike, for that is always such a lame way out, but some of the notables on this link below might beg to differ - not to mention that Tackett's admissions on the link below regarding said "good material" matter are telling,to say the least.

Thai Bri is right; "good material can stand it." For, though I find I often disagree with what his conclusions say about his possible methods of thinking things through have been, his statement hereinabove regarding this matter is backed this time by the Expert Witness/Credible Evidence of some of the people on the link below:

http://jkdtalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=6...er=asc&start=0

I truly wish people on this forum would do as I have done here - when someone they normally disagree with is correct on something, rather than remain silent or resort to insults, payback, etc., we should check our pride and do what's right - side with that individaul.

In a sense forum postings objectively read often result in a kind of chi-sao feel about others - their pride, ego issues, compassion, true knowledge, etc, is revealed.

The sad fact is that there is enough "hate" and egotism out there on "martial" forums.... Too often I find myself thinking "What true martial artist/fighter would be so insincere-insecure as to have to resort to such things..."

You'd think we'd be grateful we can even have these forums and treat each other with respect. I'd better stop; I hear "God Bless America," beginning to go off in my head....

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Liberty

I truly wish people on this forum would do as I have done here - when someone they normally disagree with is correct on something, rather than remain silent or resort to insults, payback, etc., we should check our pride and do what's right - side with that individaul.

In a sense forum postings objectively read often result in a kind of chi-sao feel about others - their pride, ego issues, compassion, true knowledge, etc, is revealed.

The sad fact is that there is enough "hate" and egotism out there on "martial" forums.... Too often I find myself thinking "What true martial artist/fighter would be so insincere-insecure as to have to resort to such things..."

First of all, I find that to be an incredibly conceited statement, that you “truly wish others would do as you do” - I believe that’s called narcissism.

Secondly, no one resorted to insults or payback. Bri, Mike and Myself were having an honest, adult exchange of views.

Thirdly, you are talking about the unknown chaos of violence. No one person is "correct" its all a subjective point of view based on individual experience. Bri has his opinion and I have mine. There is no right or wrong here, so please don’t presume to tell me who I should and shouldn’t agree with.

At 17 years old I think you are being arrogant and presumptuous in lecturing Mr Brewer on ego, security and what a true martial artist and fighter is. The man has decades more experience in the arts and in life than you have, so I find it inappropriate for you to preach at him, or anyone else for that matter.

[Ghost]

Liberty, youve done this before and its why i asked your age and your experience. i dont want to be rude to you but you come across as young, in a way that is to be expected as all young people are.
Also, you come across as someone that reads but lacks any real experience and training time.
It really takes time to understand martial arts and to develop a feel for what is going on with something.

Some people will still have differing views but, for instance, i can read one sentence that mike, michael, firecobra etc writes and feel that they have been there and done that but with your posts its alot of "if you read this website" and not alot of training time.
Its not really your fault as such as you are young and lack experience and i think you want to have a say on what you have read but you should really stop and think that some of us on here have the experience and time to know what we are talking about in certain areas.

[Ghost]

Dont remember where the quote comes from, i remember a few quotes from people and use them sometimes, i should really try and remember who says them as well lol.

[Thai Bri]

Mike and Michael are both being defensive.

When I say that good stuff can stand criticism, that is a cue to talk about the material..... not about Paul Vunak, and not about me. Yes, he is a great martial artist - so what? No, I do not have a martial arts course out there. So what?

Tell me how that material can help people in a self protection situation, and how it is better than other stuff out there, if you can. Don't tell me how Paul is a great guy and I am too quick to generalise.

All this "but he has stood the test of time" is also irrelevant. There are plenty of appalling martial artists who are still out there.

The fact that they barely discussed the material at all is very relevant. It is defensive and shows an inability to back up the arguments about the material itself.

Now leave your egos at the door and tell me how this "bite if your life is in danger" tripe is going to do anything other than get me killed.

[Liberty]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

First of all, I find that to be an incredibly conceited statement, that you “truly wish others would do as you do” - I believe that’s called narcissism.

Secondly, no one resorted to insults or payback. Bri, Mike and Myself were having an honest, adult exchange of views.

Thirdly, you are talking about the unknown chaos of violence. No one person is "correct" its all a subjective point of view based on individual experience. Bri has his opinion and I have mine. There is no right or wrong here, so please don’t presume to tell me who I should and shouldn’t agree with.

At 17 years old I think you are being arrogant and presumptuous in lecturing Mr Brewer on ego, security and what a true martial artist and fighter is. The man has decades more experience in the arts and in life than you have, so I find it inappropriate for you to preach at him, or anyone else for that matter.

Well, if I've offended anyone, my apologies. That was certainly not my motivation, nor my intended result.

[Liberty]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Ghost,
This is totally off topic, but I love the final quote you added to your signature. Who said it?

And Liberty, you're right in the respect that you should be able to set aside any personal dislike for someone in order to see the merit of the idea itself. Something to remember, though, is that I have no beef with Thai Bri. I think he's a cool guy, and he's made a lot of positive contributions here over the years. Never had any real issues with him at all. What I have done here is see someone I normally AGREE with. That person has said something I find overly general, and in many senses more personal than objective. Despite the fact that I ordinarily agree with him, I have chosen to call him on a behavior (always criticising Vunak) that I disagree with. You've made some pretty presumtuous statements. You assumed that I didn't like Bri, you assumed your way was better than everyone else's here, and you assumed that I'd attack you because you disagree. I'm not doing any such thing. I will, however, point out that you're wrong.

Distill this conversation to the barest essence. Bri said that good material could stand his criticisms. I said Vunak's material has indeed stood it. Michael added accurately that Vunak's material likely never noticed Bri's critiques were there. All of that is true, from Bri's statement to mine and Michael's. No one disagreed with any of it. We were just discussing why it was Bri's habit to go after Vunak with such venom, even though he has established his material over the course of three decades as being pretty functional, dependable, and reality-based.

Then you came along and made the statement that loyal followings and such were exactly what Bruce lee was working to avoid? How does any of that play into the discussion? I'm sorry, but Ghost is also correct. You're coming across sounding like a kid trying to sound important. I don't mean to insult your intelligence, just your sense of appropriateness. It seems to the casual observer like you felt a need to wedge your way into the conversation, and you did it sloppily. I think we all recognize that as a lack of seasoning and experience, and that's okay. Honestly, the way you gain the things you're currently lacking are by wading in and taking your lumps. Take the easy criticisms to heart and adjust fire next time. Everyone so far appears to have your best interests in mind.

Don't completely agree on everything but, nevertheless, my apologies for any miscommunication of my views on my part - especially, for having stuck my two cents in to begin with. I don't think any of you three dislike each other, by the way. Thanks for the feedback.

[Liberty]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Liberty, youve done this before and its why i asked your age and your experience. i dont want to be rude to you but you come across as young, in a way that is to be expected as all young people are.
Also, you come across as someone that reads but lacks any real experience and training time.
It really takes time to understand martial arts and to develop a feel for what is going on with something.

Some people will still have differing views but, for instance, i can read one sentence that mike, michael, firecobra etc writes and feel that they have been there and done that but with your posts its alot of "if you read this website" and not alot of training time.
Its not really your fault as such as you are young and lack experience and i think you want to have a say on what you have read but you should really stop and think that some of us on here have the experience and time to know what we are talking about in certain areas.

This may sound "geeky," or what have you, but I post links because of something I once read in the Bible. "In the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established."

Guys, just because I quoted the Bible, don't now conclude I was showing off, conceited, preaching, or what have you.You're right, Ghost, if you're also implying I read a lot. I do. But I don't mean to come off as some smart aleck when all that stuff in my head rolls out. Honest.

Hey, I have an opinion just like the rest of you do. Yeah, it's forming, shaping, but, hopefully, constantly evolving.

I can see that whenyou guys go at it, and some outsider comes in, you band together like brothers, while continuing to have your opposing views. That's admirable. I'm not blind.

Again, no offense intended.

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Thai Bri

Mike and Michael are both being defensive.

When I say that good stuff can stand criticism, that is a cue to talk about the material..... not about Paul Vunak, and not about me. Yes, he is a great martial artist - so what? No, I do not have a martial arts course out there. So what?

Tell me how that material can help people in a self protection situation, and how it is better than other stuff out there, if you can. Don't tell me how Paul is a great guy and I am too quick to generalise.

All this "but he has stood the test of time" is also irrelevant. There are plenty of appalling martial artists who are still out there.

The fact that they barely discussed the material at all is very relevant. It is defensive and shows an inability to back up the arguments about the material itself.

Now leave your egos at the door and tell me how this "bite if your life is in danger" tripe is going to do anything other than get me killed.

Can we drop this line of shit about people being defensive and checking egos. This is a forum of debate, where people come to argue their point of view. In doing so we all offer defence, offence, pride, ego, passion, argument, sarcasm, humour....and it would be a pretty fucking dull forum without it. We're all defensive to a degree and we all display an element of ego, anyone who says otherwise is full of shit, and they wouldn't be here in the first place.

I don't have anything of value to add to Mike's response on the topic of biting, he has as always offered a fine overview. What I can offer you Bri is an experience of biting in a potentially life threatening situation, not me personally but someone close. However, this involves the attempted rape of my ex-girlfriend, and knowing your profession I'm sure you appreciate that I don't want to discuss that on a public forum. If you do have a genuine interest in the subject matter then drop me a pm and I will share my experiences, for what its worth.

I'm going training. Gentlemen, its been emotional.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Originally Posted by Thai Bri

Now leave your egos at the door and tell me how this "bite if your life is in danger" tripe is going to do anything other than get me killed.

Thai,

I'm at a bit of a loss why you have so much issues with this simple biting thing? I mean on one hand I understand where you are coming from regarding biting. The person you bite can still potentially pummel you out of increased urgency and an elevation in hatred toward you.

The problem is, as I see it, biting can shoot such pain through the victim of the biting that they break contact and instinctively protect and coddle their wound with their hands.

There are few pains as great as teeth clinching and *pulling* at flesh in a tearing manner.

Everyone in combat sports wants to be a "tough guy" but the fact is everyone has their own individual pain threshold. Some levels of pain just take the fight out of you and your concern becomes survival and to rid yourself of the pain. The two greatest physical pains I have ever felt were: 1) Being sandwiched in a high school football game (actually it was practice). 2) Having a dog that bit me fairly hard get one of it's tooth stuck for a second in the flesh of my hand as I instinctively jerked and raised my hand up (which caused a pulling on my flesh). In both cases the fight was out of me for several major seconds if not minutes.

People torture people in various ways, with electrical wires, boiling water, pit bulls or what have you not because it makes the victims angrier or increases their resolve and fight. They do it because it takes the fight out of people.

[Liberty]

Originally Posted by Knuckles&Knees

...... Everyone in combat sports wants to be a "tough guy" but the fact is everyone has their own individual pain threshold. Some levels of pain just take the fight out of you and your concern becomes survival and to rid yourself of the pain. The two greatest physical pains I have ever felt were: 1) Being sandwiched in a high school football game (actually it was practice). 2) Having a dog that bit me fairly hard get one of it's tooth stuck for a second in the flesh of my hand as I instinctively jerked and raised my hand up (which caused a pulling on my flesh). In both cases the fight was out of me for several major seconds if not minutes.

People torture people in various ways, with electrical wires, boiling water, pit bulls or what have you not because it makes the victims angrier or increases their resolve and fight. They do it because it takes the fight out of people.

Knuckles, you make some good points. I was bitten by a full grown German German Shepard once. I recall fearing that it was this great big animal I knew I could not subdue; that it was the end of me! I froze.

But, in a fight once, whenn a guy I had in a hold bit the hell out of me, my response was total all out rage. And I've been bitten other times, as well. I don't know. The "rules" differ.

Sort of like when one's dad unfairly pounds em with a tele (vision) cord but there's the son-dad rule to keep one from retaliataing vs the street, where one can have at it, I guess would be my example.

Also, this thing about being bitten by a vicious animal under total lack of control torture conditions; would that be same, psychologically, as being bitten by a person in a fight?

I'm not trying to differ here; just throwing out somethings we might also examine.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Originally Posted by Liberty

Knuckles, you make some good points. I was bitten by a full grown German German Shepard once. I recall fearing that it was this great big animal I knew I could not subdue; that it was the end of me! I froze.

But, in a fight once, whenn a guy I had in a hold bit the hell out of me, my response was total all out rage. And I've been bitten other times, as well. I don't know. The "rules" differ.

Sort of like when one's dad unfairly pounds em with a tele (vision) cord but there's the son-dad rule to keep one from retaliataing vs the street, where one can have at it, I guess would be my example.

Also, this thing about being bitten by a vicious animal under total lack of control torture conditions; would that be same, psychologically, as being bitten by a person in a fight?

I'm not trying to differ here; just throwing out somethings we might also examine.

I don't know... I've never been bitten in a fight.

But I am pretty confident in saying everyone has their pain threshold. Now, my pain threshold could possibly be less than yours and Thai Bri's [shrug]. That's something I can't readily know just from an online forum.

I think though, just as there are different levels of force and intent thrown in a punch, the same applies to biting. I was interpreting Vunak's video clip to suggest that in a life or death situation one bite with the force and intent to *disfigure*. I have a difficult time imagining someone with a chunk bitten out of their cheek becoming rapidly filled with greater morale and "fight" in them. Now, for the mentally ill... I'm not so sure about, they might just go berserk.

[Ghost]

IMO where you get bitten will make alot of difference.
Getting bitten in the neck is going to freak someone out and scare them, biting on the arm will piss them off.

[DickHardman]

vunak looked pretty coked out in that clip. look at those dark rings around his eyes.

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by DickHardman

vunak looked pretty coked out in that clip. look at those dark rings around his eyes.

Not biting, Dick.

And there was a comma in there, before you drag me into a homo-erotic fantasy.