Trend to mix JKD with FMA (Kali, Escrima)

[imstriker]

Hello all. This is my first post here. I am seeing a trend that some schools fuse JKD and FMA together into a single program. Is this the latest trend in JKD training? I am seeing this trend in a school that I intended to register but now I have a little doubt. I am not really interested in weapons training at this stage. Why should I learn both JKD and FMA at the same time?

I have done some research and I could not find any references to any weapons training in the original JKD that Bruce Lee himself taught. Also, I am not sure how doing both unarmed and armed combat together at the same time will benefit and accelerate my JKD which is primarily an unarmed combat art.

[Ghost]

i think you need to do a little more reading around, google.com is your friend.

[imstriker]

Originally Posted by Ghost

i think you need to do a little more reading around, google.com is your friend.

So ghost, are you suggesting that any JKD training automatically should and must include FMA? Is that what a google search will show? Are you suggesting that if I attend a seminar by one of Burce's original students from Seattle, Oakland or LA Chinatown, a detailed presentation of FMA will be included in the seminar?

[Ghost]

Its standard to do FMA as part of JKD. JKD is a mix of martial arts, FMA is part of it.

[Liberty]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Its standard to do FMA as part of JKD. JKD is a mix of martial arts, FMA is part of it.

There you go, my friend, with one of your conclusions. Gotta say, I always welcome your challenging assertions, really.

No disrespect to you, but though FMA be "standard" JKD, these days, all my research indicates otherwise; no disrespect to Inosanto intended either. Better to call that Inosanto JKD, if that.

http://jkdtalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=6...er=asc&start=0

And JKD is not "a mix of martial arts." At least not Bruce Lee's expression of it. For what he did was to look at other arts (wing chun, western boxing, fencing, savate, what limited Thai Boxing was available back to him then, etc.) not so much for their techniques as much as for their principles of combat efficiency.

For example, he eventually abandoned Wing Chun. His vertical punch, to anyone who has not done the research, looks like Wing Chun. Even some Wing Chun people confuse it (some intentionaly, I suspect). In actuallity, it's based not on Wing Chun with it's specific means of transporting it, etc., but on his own objective, painstakely dissected studies and experiments of early Western Boxing principles of effective delivery. And yet, it's not Western Boxing (Lee JKD's scientific emphasis of one's strong side forward vs Western Boxing's traditional emphasis on one's weaker side forward, etc.).

In short, as Lee himself, put it, Lee's own JKD uses/relies on "no (particular) way (of doing things), as a way" (set principle). As a result, Lee's own JKD was/is purely his unique expression in motion.

In motion, Lee's JKD was/is like a spinning top; ever appearing, to most observers, upon their one, or the same glance, each time, the same, ever appearing "a style" or "mix," yet ever ending up somewhere else - something else - as dictated by it's relationship to it's context.

This is not only a key to understanding and reading the man's true abilities (and JKD) from what little actual sparring, etc., footage we have of him, thus far, as well as from pieces of his movies illustrating said principles, but a key principle in his having been ahead of his time (still is), a key principle in why his JKD was/is not "a mix of martial arts."

Your turn, Ghost - "Relationship, relationship, relationship!" - Bruce Lee

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by imstriker

Hello all. This is my first post here. I am seeing a trend that some schools fuse JKD and FMA together into a single program. Is this the latest trend in JKD training? I am seeing this trend in a school that I intended to register but now I have a little doubt. I am not really interested in weapons training at this stage. Why should I learn both JKD and FMA at the same time?

I have done some research and I could not find any references to any weapons training in the original JKD that Bruce Lee himself taught. Also, I am not sure how doing both unarmed and armed combat together at the same time will benefit and accelerate my JKD which is primarily an unarmed combat art.

A simple answer to your question:

If you just want to study the original art of Mr Lee there are many schools and instructors who will teach you that, without FMA. However for those who want to use the concepts of Mr Lee's art to explore other systems, FMA included, there are schools that offer that. If you aren't interested in weaponry or FMA then I suggest the former. One is not right or wrong, you simply have the luxury of choice.

[ShawnJKD]

It depends a lot on the lineage of JKD. If the school is linked to Guro Inosanto it will likely include the Filipino arts as part of its program, but even at the Inosanto academy you do not HAVE to take the Filipino classes. Check the schedule of the schools you are thinking of attending and see if they offer seperate time slots for FMA and JKD (at Trinity we teach both in class but are always clear about what is Jun Fan and what is not).

imstriker it sounds from your 2nd post above that you already knew this, but were looking to spark the ongoing debate between JKD factions.

I never understand the need for argument. Just find a place you enjoy training at and train.

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by ShawnJKD

Just find a place you enjoy training at and train.

Probably one of the smartest posts on here in a long time.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Liberty

There you go, my friend, with one of your conclusions. Gotta say, I always welcome your challenging assertions, really.

No disrespect to you, but though FMA be "standard" JKD, these days, all my research indicates otherwise; no disrespect to Inosanto intended either. Better to call that Inosanto JKD, if that.

http://jkdtalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=6...er=asc&start=0

And JKD is not "a mix of martial arts." At least not Bruce Lee's expression of it. For what he did was to look at other arts (wing chun, western boxing, fencing, savate, what limited Thai Boxing was available back to him then, etc.) not so much for their techniques as much as for their principles of combat efficiency.

For example, he eventually abandoned Wing Chun. His vertical punch, to anyone who has not done the research, looks like Wing Chun. Even some Wing Chun people confuse it (some intentionaly, I suspect). In actuallity, it's based not on Wing Chun with it's specific means of transporting it, etc., but on his own objective, painstakely dissected studies and experiments of early Western Boxing principles of effective delivery. And yet, it's not Western Boxing (Lee JKD's scientific emphasis of one's strong side forward vs Western Boxing's traditional emphasis on one's weaker side forward, etc.).

In short, as Lee himself, put it, Lee's own JKD uses/relies on "no (particular) way (of doing things), as a way" (set principle). As a result, Lee's own JKD was/is purely his unique expression in motion.

In motion, Lee's JKD was/is like a spinning top; ever appearing, to most observers, upon their one, or the same glance, each time, the same, ever appearing "a style" or "mix," yet ever ending up somewhere else - something else - as dictated by it's relationship to it's context.

This is not only a key to understanding and reading the man's true abilities (and JKD) from what little actual sparring, etc., footage we have of him, thus far, as well as from pieces of his movies illustrating said principles, but a key principle in his having been ahead of his time (still is), a key principle in why his JKD was/is not "a mix of martial arts."

Your turn, Ghost - "Relationship, relationship, relationship!" - Bruce Lee

thats just alot of internet reading again isnt it, most JKD schools teach FMA. what is there to argue about that.
JKD is mix or martial arts, you are trying to add on to that that it is picking the stuff that works.
you arent saying anything.

[Tim McFatridge]

I understand why some people think that JKD is a mix of different martial arts. In the beginning it was... because Bruce studied and researched many many different martial arts systems and drew from most of them in order to come up with his art. The difference between what Bruce Lee did back then and what most people are doing today is day and night. Bruce Lee had a very clear vision of what he wanted the end product to be. He knew exactly what he was looking to accomplish with his fighting method.

Most people today will take the concepts of JKD and apply them to every thing they train in and then mix it all together and call it JKD... and it is not. Jun Fan has a set curriculum... that was created by Bruce Lee. In order to do Jun Fan then you have to know and understand this curriculum. JKD while a concept has Jun Fan as its core art or base art.

Most people add FMA to JKD because thats what they see others doing. Their instructors did it so they do it. They train with Guro Inosanto and he does it so they do it because they want to be like him. This is not a bad thing... I have trained with Guro Dan on many occasions and trained with Sifu Larry Hartsell for 13 years so I am firmly in the Guro Dan camp of JKD.

However, with that being said I think everyone should search and find their own way in the arts and remain true to your self. I teach FMA and I also teach Jun Fan/JKD. When I am teaching JF/JKD that is all I teach. When I am teaching FMA then that is all I teach. When I am teaching my Integrated Submission Grappling then that is all I teach.

This is just my opinion and personal thoughts on the subject... no offense intended to anyone.

Tim

[Michael Wright]

That is one of the clearest, most concise, and accurate overviews of Jeet Kune Do I have read in a long time.

My respects Mr McFatridge

Michael

[Liberty]

Originally Posted by Ghost

thats just alot of internet reading again isnt it, most JKD schools teach FMA. what is there to argue about that.
JKD is mix or martial arts, you are trying to add on to that that it is picking the stuff that works.
you arent saying anything.

I've had my share of knife, beer bottle, biting, getting shot at encounters, so no, it's not "just a lot of reading" again. Sorry, video on the matter is the same as yours....

It is ironic you and anyone else assume someone's "experience" in such matters depends upon their age.

I believe someone posted something about you Ghost (or Bri), to the effect that you also came from a rough background. I find it hard to believe you have never encountered "kids" colder, more "street-wise" then all those DVD producing "masters" put together.

Looking at JKD from that, it's "scientific street fighting," principles of energy and striking transfer, leverage, power generation, anges of attack and so forth, and not some mix of martial arts techniques.

In fact, FMA is somewhat like that. In it's focus on angles of attack, for example. Wherein a straight thrust with a fist, foot, knife, pole, what have you, for example, is treated not according to what technique it is but to what angle it is coming from, hence, it is much more flexible and adaptable in that area, than techniques focused arts.

You've obviously never heard of nor encountered "kids" who grow up in, choose, have violent worlds forced upon them, kids as cold as a human being can become - who well know a thing or two we could all learn from where surviving violent encounters are concerned.

[Ghost]

I meant experience in martial arts, not the amount of "kids" youve had trouble with.
By JKD being a mix of martial arts i mean that it draws from different systems.


FMA makes a part of most JKD curriculum, its not something new, or a current trend.

[g-bells]

Originally Posted by Tim McFatridge

I understand why some people think that JKD is a mix of different martial arts. In the beginning it was... because Bruce studied and researched many many different martial arts systems and drew from most of them in order to come up with his art. The difference between what Bruce Lee did back then and what most people are doing today is day and night. Bruce Lee had a very clear vision of what he wanted the end product to be. He knew exactly what he was looking to accomplish with his fighting method.

Most people today will take the concepts of JKD and apply them to every thing they train in and then mix it all together and call it JKD... and it is not. Jun Fan has a set curriculum... that was created by Bruce Lee. In order to do Jun Fan then you have to know and understand this curriculum. JKD while a concept has Jun Fan as its core art or base art.

Most people add FMA to JKD because thats what they see others doing. Their instructors did it so they do it. They train with Guro Inosanto and he does it so they do it because they want to be like him. This is not a bad thing... I have trained with Guro Dan on many occasions and trained with Sifu Larry Hartsell for 13 years so I am firmly in the Guro Dan camp of JKD.

However, with that being said I think everyone should search and find their own way in the arts and remain true to your self. I teach FMA and I also teach Jun Fan/JKD. When I am teaching JF/JKD that is all I teach. When I am teaching FMA then that is all I teach. When I am teaching my Integrated Submission Grappling then that is all I teach.

This is just my opinion and personal thoughts on the subject... no offense intended to anyone.

Tim

great post tim!!

[Ghost]

I dont personally agree that JKD has to have Jun Fan as its base. My interpretation of JKD is as a basic philosophy of training different martial arts and applying what works for you, no more, no less.
"Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it."

If this means i dont do JKD then thats fine. Ill say i do mixed martial arts instead.