I am new here but . . . I am not new to the game.

[Razinghell]

My question is:

In JKD circles why do we seeming bash other arts and more mind boggling others in the JKD family?

I have been reading the posts for a while but rarely feel the need to post, much less, create a thread. The posts in the Vunak-Enigma Thread has caused me to stand up a bit.

If one of the philosophies of JKD is: "Absorb what is useful, Discard what is useless and add what is specifically your own", why, do we seem to let each other have it when we bring up different aspects of our own training experiences?

I mean, we are all different. We all have different body types, ages, culture, environments and life experiences, right? So our expression of the "JKD Philsophy" will (and should ) all be different, correct?

So to sum it up, I like to see good civil interaction about our martial arts experiences but, I am seriously tired of all the nonesensicle bickering.

Thanks for reading.

[Ghost]

IMO the problem comes down to a couple of aspects.
The nature of JKD is that its very personal as you pointed out so you get people with very different opinions by default, this causes arguments, thats human nature. They found what works for them and what they think will work so they disagree with others that dont think in a similar manner.

Also lack of competitive aspect to JKD. With no proving ground it is very easy to have a ton of techniues and arguments regarding them, if there were a sporting, ring aspect to JKD it would at least test SOME of them, obviously some stuff would be banned from the ring but you would at least get rid of the ton of crap that also exists in JKD after teacher after teacher that hasnt had to test any of it.

[Mike Brewer]

I don't know why many people feel the need to bash others. Paul Vunak draws those people more than some, though. Honestly, civil discourse is great, and I appreciate it whenever and wherever I can find it. But as a martial artist, I also appreciate the value of conflict. I don't feel it's necessary for everyone to agree, nor for everyone to be civil. Fully half of what I believe, I have discovered by virtue of opposition. In having to defend the things that were important to me, I learned what was important to me and how willing I was to sacrifice for it. In that respect, the debates and arguments here mirror martial art. In the world of fighting, you have to defend yourself against senseless attacks from uncivil people. You don't gripe about it. you train for it and act appropriately. When people discuss things civlilly here, you'll find many people doing the same. On the other hand, when people choose to get offensive, many people "fight" back.

I would submit to you that the real issue is not the arguing and bickering and cheap shots that have always existed and will probably always exist in every human endeavor. Rather, the problem lies in how personally you choose to take things. As a veteran of the the "game," I would encourage you to be happy and thankful for your opposition, for it is through our opponents and the resistance they provide that we develop our strength.

[Razinghell]

Thanks for the responses.

I understand that disagreements are part of life and I welcome them. I would much rather see the discussions with opinions being stated and intelligent rebutals. All to often it seems that it just boils down: "This guys sucks..." or "You don't know what you are talking about so, STFU. . ." and the like.

I look at it this way. I am a father of 4 children. I don't mind if my kids have a difference of opinion. As long as they air them in a civilized manner. As a matter of fact, I rather enjoy to the process of a good disagreement among family. It draws us closer together and we gain a view point that we may not have had before. But when it boils down to name calling, degridation and words that are intentionally made to cause pain to a sibling that where I draw the line. I would hope that I could call the people that tract along the same martial art philosophy, "Family".

This post was aiming more inwardly then outwardly. I just think that we could be using our energy more efficiently. The in-fighting is just very frusterating.

[Razinghell]

Deleted due to double post

[Mike Brewer]

I know where you're coming from, and I agree...to a point. I am also a father, and I can't help but see the value in exposing my child to the way things are instead of the way we wish they were. The fact is that no matter what a great idea it may be to have constructive dialogue and civil discourse, it'll never, ever happen because for every educated, intelligent, civilized person having a civilized discussion out there, there are five idiots with neither the depth of knowledge nor the foundation of character to take part in anything constructive, let alone discussions. Better, in my own limited and humble experience to take both for what they are and let the lesson lie with our own reactions and choices.

Life is pretty simple, and in my opinion, fair. You'll face all kinds of bullshit in a lifetime, and we may have utterly no control over any of it. What we do have control over, though, is how we choose to respond and how we choose to feel about it all. If you let it frustrate you and piss you off, that's a personal choice. If you choose to believe the world would be better if reality weren't reality, that's a way to go. I think it might lead ot disappointment, but I've been wrong before. For me, I'll take the idiots for what they're worth and the geniuses for what they're worth too.

I, like you appreciate good, intelligent discourse. Unlike you, I neither expect it nor reckon it would lead to anything better than what we have now. I think there's simply more to be had from learning to find value in what you have than in trying to make the world conform.

[Michael Wright]

In my experience JKD attracts a certain type of person. They tend to have an inquisitive, challenging mind, and I also find them to be passionate and expressive. If they weren’t people of this make up, I’m sure they would just go down a gym and kick a bag. They are attracted to JKD because of the concepts and philosophies inherent in it’s study. Perhaps for this reason you will find a greater share of debate, disagreement and personal expression on the topic. Like Mike, I don’t personally see this as a bad thing.

There are exceptions. The Vunak/Enigma thread is not a fair representation of a good JKD debate, and that is largely my fault. Having read my contributions to that thread it reflects the fact that I am not going through a good time right now, and have subsequently been ranting like a self-important prick.

Overall however, I would have become bored with this forum very quickly if everyone’s contribution consisted of “I agree with you 100%, you’re the man, we are one”. To borrow a post I made on another thread - This is a forum of debate, where people come to argue their point of view. In doing so we all offer defence, offence, pride, ego, passion, argument, sarcasm, humour....and it would be a pretty dull forum without it.

[Mike Brewer]

Michael, I probably more than anyone on these forums have had bouts of the pissy whiny self-important syndrome from time to time. It's only mitigated by the fact that I know everything and I'm always right.

No, seriously though, if you're here being yourself, those kinds of things happen. People will see you have human moods and say human things. The people who come out and put up some pretend face because it's the internet are no fun because they're one-dimensional people. I'd rather talk and debate with people who get mad, upset, bitter, and sarcastic as well as who can maintain decorum and have civil discussions. The full spectrum of emotions and behaviors will always be more interesting than a select few.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm sorry life sucks for you right now and don't feel bad about blowing off steam. Good people understand that, and have no trouble looking past it. If you find yourself "living there," then shame on you. Have a salt tablet and walk it off. In the mean time, let's find something to argue about, eh?

[Razinghell]

Mike and Mike, both points well taken.

I guess it is both idealistic and naive to think anything other then,

"The fact is that no matter what a great idea it may be to have constructive dialogue and civil discourse, it'll never, ever happen because for every educated, intelligent, civilized person having a civilized discussion out there, there are five idiots with neither the depth of knowledge nor the foundation of character to take part in anything constructive, let alone discussions."

But if those of us that are frustrated just stand by and have the, "That's the way it is and always will be so, chuck it." response, it will never change.

And maybe thats the point . . . It is just never going to change so I should just stop adding to the debate. Sad as it is.

With that, I may just fade back the obsurity of just reading and not posting.

[Ghost]

Mate, this is how forums are, i havent been on a forum that isnt.
People use it to let of steam, hopefully no one takes it too seriously.
If you post a serious well thought out post you will likely get a sensible reply.

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Michael, I probably more than anyone on these forums have had bouts of the pissy whiny self-important syndrome from time to time. It's only mitigated by the fact that I know everything and I'm always right.

No, seriously though, if you're here being yourself, those kinds of things happen. People will see you have human moods and say human things. The people who come out and put up some pretend face because it's the internet are no fun because they're one-dimensional people. I'd rather talk and debate with people who get mad, upset, bitter, and sarcastic as well as who can maintain decorum and have civil discussions. The full spectrum of emotions and behaviors will always be more interesting than a select few.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm sorry life sucks for you right now and don't feel bad about blowing off steam. Good people understand that, and have no trouble looking past it. If you find yourself "living there," then shame on you. Have a salt tablet and walk it off. In the mean time, let's find something to argue about, eh?

Thanks Mike, I appreciate that.

So then, Bruce Lee vs Mohammed Ali.......

[JKDBrando]

Boy, Men, Man, Male = alpha, competetive, conscious, compassionate

We could add several more +'s to the list but i'll stop there. Traits we posses that make us "us" and they make us wonderful in our own ways. Can't help that, just embrace.

This is just like "Intellectual JKD" flowing with the convo and redirecting energy to make an opening for your point.

I am fairly new here and to JKD or MA at that, but I learn many points just by reading through the pages and pages of verbal combat that hasn't crossed my mind yet but makes sense.

Great post. Political at that.

[Mike Brewer]

Originally Posted by Razinghell

Mike and Mike, both points well taken.

I guess it is both idealistic and naive to think anything other then,



But if those of us that are frustrated just stand by and have the, "That's the way it is and always will be so, chuck it." response, it will never change.

And maybe thats the point . . . It is just never going to change so I should just stop adding to the debate. Sad as it is.

With that, I may just fade back the obsurity of just reading and not posting.

Brother, I understand, and I appreciate what you're saying. I'm not saying for one instant that you should "chuck it" when it comes to things that need changing. Rather, I was trying to persuade you that as frustrating as it may be personally, perhaps the conflict and friction forums like this provide is actually beneficial in the long run. Again, it's a matter of what's good for the overall picture, and less about what's good for the frustrated individual. If argument, debate, and a dependable comparison of the educated and experienced versus the classless and inane exists, well, then that's beneficial. If you're forced by opposition to defend your views, it also forces you to clarify them in your own mind, and I think that's ultimately a good thing.

Put another way, if you fade back into obscurity, what benefit has anyone (yourself included) stood to gain? That attitude is a whole lot closer to the "it can't be changed, so chuck it" mindset you disagree with, doesn't it? Instead, I'd encourage you to participate, and to do so fully. Get emotional from time to time, and tell your peers what's on your mind. I think no group in history that ever achieved anything worth remembering did it without disagreement. Nothing worthwhile was ever easy or entirely enjoyable. But it was, after all was said and done, worthwhile.

Food for thought, anyway. I hope to see you posting in the future.

[Liberty]

Originally Posted by Ghost

.... Also lack of competitive aspect to JKD. With no proving ground it is very easy to have a ton of techniues and arguments regarding them, if there were a sporting, ring aspect to JKD it would at least test SOME of them, obviously some stuff would be banned from the ring but you would at least get rid of the ton of crap that also exists in JKD after teacher after teacher that hasnt had to test any of it.

Dallas Ninjitsu vs JKD

Dallas Ninjitsu in training ("Concepts" Ninjitsu?):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=olToOu9DwUc

Dallas Ninjitsu (white cloth shin guards) vs JKD - 3 fights (in order):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=l_tIcuWieqo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XFObzABDaBk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AZuxzcGrFTI

[Mike Brewer]

Well, Liberty, from the clips you just showed, that's not only atypical "JKD" but it's atypical ninjutsu as well. Guys without the first clue of what to do on the ground (or against opponents several weight classes above them) hardly represents the JKD world or the ninjutsu world as a whole. The techniques used in those videos, the format, and virtually everything else about them looked a lot more like an amateurish MMA match than "competitive JKD" or ninjutsu.

Just because a couple schools in Dallas got together and sparred doesn't take anything away from Ghost's point.