Anyone Practiced This Defense?

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by g-bells

If you covered up like that, how are you going to see any leg kicks coming??

Let me state i'm not knocking it, just asking a question.

a better question might be to ask how will you see all the punches coming at you.

As soon as a hook or an uppercut is thrown this technique wont work will it and you might obscure your view of an incoming punch, in particular hooks.

[Mike Brewer]

Excellent point. Movement is almost always preferable to duck-and-cover based defenses. Granted, they all have their place, but one of the biggest faults I find with this kind of defense is that it's ONLY a defense. The hands and arms are used solely for protecting, and instead of countering, the fighter is more or less just waiting until his opponent gets done with a flurry before responding.

[Ghost]

I personally prefer to isolate the components of this. Though i have been taught it both ways but if you look at the cover for the right cross, i think this is a useful defense.
Im not keen on the defense against the jab, there are simply better alternatives.
Put together as a kind of alternating defense as shown in the video is ok but its really a "im being overwhelmed and cant cope" defense.


The defense against the cross is useful though for a few reasons.
The right cross for most is their big punch. This defense (the cover of the right cross only) allows you to defend with little skill or timing required. Its a solid defense against a solid punch, it also leaves your big right cross/hook/uppercut free to counter providing you dont launch into this alternating defense.

Certainly a useful block to have on its own. IMO.

[Mike Brewer]

Are you looking at it as a sort of snapshot? As a reaction to a specific offense? Because it looked as if it was being taught as a basic "position" or ready.

I would agree that as a cover or block from a specific attack, it has a useful place. I just think it's unsound as a ready position or overall defensive idea.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Are you looking at it as a sort of snapshot? As a reaction to a specific offense? Because it looked as if it was being taught as a basic "position" or ready.

I would agree that as a cover or block from a specific attack, it has a useful place. I just think it's unsound as a ready position or overall defensive idea.

Im assuming its a defensive tactic that can be adopted as opposed to a stance as such, if its a stance then forget it.

[Motion]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Put together as a kind of alternating defense as shown in the video is ok but its really a "im being overwhelmed and cant cope" defense.

But what about how Quinton Jackson uses it?

[Mike Brewer]

You'll clearly notice that the defense did nothing for Quinton in terms of being able to counter in that clip. It did nothing to keep Vanderlei from attacking again. It did nothing to improve his position. In fact, all it did was keep him from getting hit.

I've mentioned in other threads that the progression of counter-offensive principles is, in order from most desirable to least desirable:

• Stop-hitting, or hitting the opponent when he's trying to get ready to hit.
• Time-hitting, or hitting the opponent when his attack is in flight and too committed to change course.
• Countering, or hitting just as the opponent's attack finishes, but is still extended or unrecovered.
• Evading a blow so that it misses, but you are still in range to return fire.
• Avoiding a blow so that you break distance but are in control of all offensive tools
• Blocking a blow, which may leave you in place, ut which spends an offensive tool on defense
• Absorbing a shot to return another.

The reason for this progression is obvious from your clip of Quinton. He got nowhere because of that defense. Sure, he didn't get hit. That's a small victory. But what you saw right after that was him taking a step back, passively, without being able to promptly counter. You're obviously a Rampage fan, and so am I, so I don't mean any disrespect to him. I also think it's important to remember that he lost both his fights with Vanderlei. In other words, the tactic you've chosen to illustrate in that clip was a losing strategy in a fight against a guy who used his hands to hit with instead of block with.

[Motion]

^
Well you're not going to win a fight just with the crazy monkey defense. Jackson has used the same defense in other fights that he's won.

[Mike Brewer]

You asked!

That's cool. I was talking about the two examples you posted. Can you agree that when faced with a striker who was assaulting him with good offense, and he used the crazy monkey, he got knocked out once and TKO'd another time?

And I maintain that the defense does not allow him to strike effectively in time to counter "in traffic." That's why in nearly every single video of him using it that you can find, you'll see an opponent flurrying, you'll see Quinton covering, and then you'll see them break or widen the gap. You won't see him punching out of trouble.

[eXcessiveForce]

now one would have to wonder why you would want to punch your way out though. When you figure their hands are attacking high, you are defending High, and your legs are perfectly capable of launch an attack while the other guy is in his flurry

[Mike Brewer]

You'd only wonder if you'd never trained it.

Learning to punch "in traffic" is a common learning point in boxing gyms, and the reason for it is because the man is committing a lot more on the high line than the low line. He's slinging his head and body around, but the legs don't move much. Consequently, you can do more for less. I'll look for some video to post of what I mean.

[eXcessiveForce]

Just seems to me a great set up to start throwing kicks. There hands are engaged, you are covering, and the opening for the kicks are so glaringly in your face, it seems a shame to waste the opportunity to break their fliurry with a strong kick create an opening and then switch to hands. Also a dang good way not to stand their being so defensive.


I understand the idea of punching out of it, I just wonder in the clip above why you'd waste the effort when you hands are out of position because of crazy monkey, but you still have striking tools available.

[Mike Brewer]

Here you go. Compare what happens when these guys punch out of trouble instead of standing and covering. Especially the first couple or three...

YouTube Video

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Motion

But what about how Quinton Jackson uses it?

Did you spot the glaringly obvious and wonderful opening that jackson missed there.
Could have ended the fight but he missed it cos he was covering.
Not to take anything away from UFC fighters but 99% of them cant punch for shit and wouldnt last 1 round in a boxing match.

The standard of stand up fighting in UFC is vastly inferior to that in of other systems, on the whole though not across the board of course.
Isolating that clip a reasonable boxer would have taken that left hook opportunity jackson had and used it to good effect.

Like i was saying before, it works ok if you are in a cant cope situation. Which is what jackson was in here, eyes closed, going through the motions no counter punches.

The no1 sign that a boxer is in control of his defense is that he can counter punch off it.
I know this is UFC but the point still stands. If you are defending and can counter you are in control, if you cant counter you are out of control.


Having said that, like i said before, it has its time and place, ie when you cant block due to being overwhelmed and this is how jackson used it here and it worked for him. It worked in the sense that he didnt get hit.
It failed also because he missed the opening, thats the whole point me and mike are making i think.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by eXcessiveForce

Just seems to me a great set up to start throwing kicks. There hands are engaged, you are covering, and the opening for the kicks are so glaringly in your face, it seems a shame to waste the opportunity to break their fliurry with a strong kick create an opening and then switch to hands. Also a dang good way not to stand their being so defensive.


I understand the idea of punching out of it, I just wonder in the clip above why you'd waste the effort when you hands are out of position because of crazy monkey, but you still have striking tools available.

You could.
However, when people are punching, as you well know, they leave openings to their head, thats the nature of punching, you can cover up as well as you like but punching leaves openings.

THough kick counter is an option, if you are looking for a kick you arent seeing the best shot, usually.
The best shot here is the opening where jackson can throw a left hook and the guys chin is completely open. Thats the best counter here.

Its just a question of whats the best counter at any moment. Ideally its a shot to the head and punches allow that more than kicks. You could kick counter and that would be fine IMO but youd have missed that lovely open jaw that you could have punched.

Punching out is better than kick counter most of the time but not always.

Kick counter works better when your opponent likes to punch alot but you are in control of their attacks, a nice parry followed by a low kick. IF you have control over their attack consistently then you can use kick counters to nice effect. Thats the best place for kick counters. IMO.