Anyone Practiced This Defense?

[TTEscrima]

Originally Posted by migo

I'd want to be damn good if I was trying that. If you get your aim off the punch could be coming straight down the middle. Aiming to take it on your arm seems like a more reliable method of not getting hit in the face.

R.A.T. from Paul Vunak.

[migo]

I'm acquainted with the acronym, but not familiar with the content.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by TTEscrima

It looks like the classic limb destruction "comb the hair" from Silat to me.

Damn dude... just give it away, eh?

I try to go for subtle... only a hint of leading. The "defensive" appearance of anything is just an illusion in silat.

So called "Weak counterpart position"

I don't know much about anything... Just a bit of judo, eh?

[Mike Brewer]

Originally Posted by migo

Whoa, whoa, whoa. He lost due to knees in the clinch. I remember you catching someone else posting things out of context, and I'm really not clear at all how him losing from getting kneed in the face relates to CM not being particularly effective for dealing with punches in the boxing range.

It's because he had to move through punching range to get to knees and if Rampage had any kind of counter-offense in boxing, the fight might not have gotten that far. "Sit and wait" is just not any kind of way to win a fight.

[TTEscrima]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

"Sit and wait" is just not any kind of way to win a fight.

Must behave, can't say I disagree but OMG, I must sit on my hands before I...

[Mike Brewer]

Hey, agree or disagree as you like. Anyone that thinks differently, just wander on down to your local boxing gym and call out a 205 pounder about Vanderlei's size. You cover up and let him tee off while you sit and wait.

I know who my money is on.

Here's the fight. Pay attention around 1:30. Vanderlei launches a combination of punches. Rampage's response is to cover up and wait. What happens? Vanderlei is able to clinch without any trouble at all and launch knees.

Pay attention again at around 1:44. Vanderlei launches a combination of punches and Rampage covers up and waits. Vanderlei is able to get ahold of him and launch some more knees without any trouble at all.

Pay attention at about 2:00. Vanderlei closes the distance and clinches easily. Rampage's response? Cover up and wait for knees. He covers and waits again! It's just on a different line! What happens? Vanderlei hits him him in the head with a forearm and a hook, then yanks him down and knees him to finish.

YouTube Video

So migo, with all due respect, you can stuff "Whoa whoa whoa" and "out of context" up a deep dark hole. Rampage got his ass kicked in that fight because he sat back, covered up, and had no counter offense through boxing range.

[TTEscrima]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Hey, agree or disagree as you like.

I'm 100% in agreement, fight to win, winning fights is done with a good offense not by sitting and waiting to see what develops or hoping the other guy tires, that kind of thinking leads to counting on your friends to show up first.

[Mike Brewer]

Originally Posted by TTEscrima

I'm 100% in agreement, fight to win, winning fights is done with a good offense not by sitting and waiting to see what develops or hoping the other guy tires, that kind of thinking leads to counting on your friends to show up first.

That's absolutely awesome! I understand why you thought you needed to sit on your hands, but in all honesty (and all debate aside), I agree with you on that point 100%. I get why the Army does what they do, and in all honesty, it's a good thing to train for. I've seen groups fall apart because people in the group didn't know what to do and had no experience "helping." The good guys clogged the works and got in the way. So from that point of view, I know where they're coming from. Still, being a guy who worked in a very, very small team, I certainly didn't train like that. What happens if everybody gets into a pile of shit and they all hang on and wait hoping the others show? Bad juju.

Dunno if you read it or not, but in the "FAO Mike" thread, I mentioned a combatives training project I did for my old unit? What do you suppose the driving reason we wanted something different was? (Hint: It had to do with the fact that groundfighting is an unmitigated motherfucker when you're wearing an interceptor vest, a gas mask, a thigh holster, and a butt pack.)

[Mike Brewer]

Post Script:

Rematch? Same story. Please note that right before Quinton got knocked clean the hell out of the ring, Vanderlei launched a series of punches. Rampage covered up and sat back and waited. Vanderlei closed without any opposition, threw a hard knee, and well...you get the idea.

YouTube Video

Um, was that in context enough?

[migo]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

It's because he had to move through punching range to get to knees and if Rampage had any kind of counter-offense in boxing, the fight might not have gotten that far. "Sit and wait" is just not any kind of way to win a fight.

He wasn't sitting and waiting. He took Silva down, passed to mount and was pounding on him at the end of the round. You're making way too much of a leap that CM isn't all that good based on the fact that Rampage lost. You'd have a better case saying slams are no good because he still got armbared by Sakuraba - that directly related to slams as submission escapes. However we saw Rampage successfully slamming out of Arona's triangle. Whether any technique or strategy works depends on the specific situation and who you're fighting. Him losing to Silva was very much a case of styles making fights. Rampage is bad at dealing with knees, it's quite obvious in fact. The Chute Boxe guys are very good with their knees. Regardless of whatever else Rampage is good or bad at, that's a serious matchup defecit for him. A perfect counter example is that his counter striking works just fine against Chuck Liddell. In fact the way he KOed him the second time was beautiful counter striking. We see from that that Rampage clearly has counterstriking, that throws out your hypothesis that the reason Rampage lost to Silva was because he had inadequate counter striking skills. We also have a very clear indication that Rampage's deficit is his clinch defense.

The point of CM, in the context that I've been exposed to it and seen Rodney King talking about it (which I'm aware is likely not the only context for its use) has been for people with limited striking skills to be able to defend themselves against getting knocked out. In a self defense situation, doing what Rampage did, backing up and then running is completely appropriate. Unfortunately for Rampage he was in a ring fight and that wasn't an option, but it clearly did protect him against Silva's initial onslaughts. If I was fighting someone like Wanderlei Silva and the only thing I managed was to not get KOed by the first flurry he comes at me with, and then I can run like hell, I'll be pretty damn happy.

[migo]

Rampage got his ass kicked in that fight because he sat back, covered up, and had no counter offense through boxing range.

His counter offense in the boxing range was spot on against Liddell. I just can't agree with you (about that). He knocked out Chuck Liddell with a boxing counter punch. He has it. He demonstrated it against one of the hardest hitting punchers and most dominant fighters in his weight class. It doesn't get much more clear than that. I won't argue that he didn't display it in his fights with Silva, but he didn't actually display anything except balls in his fight with Shogun. Your explanation that he lacks the skills is completely implausible, especially compared to the explanation that Shogun and Silva had the skills to shut down Rampage and get through his defenses.

There's more context than just an individual fight. You need to look at all a fighter's performances. If you look at Mirko Filipovic vs Gabriel Gonzaga, and ignore his K-1 career, you'd think that Mirko has no defense against roundhouse kicks to the head.

[Mike Brewer]

We weren't talking about Liddell. We were talking about a particular fight, against Vanderlei, and in that fight everything I said about him was spot on. If you want to change the context, that's something different. I was talking about the Vanderlei fight, and that clip specifically, so what I said is a perfectly apt commentary. And again, what Rampage did in the beginning of the fight is not a reflection at all of why he lost. I'm not trying to say Rampage is no good or anything, so you don't need to be all defensive and stick up for his abilities. He's a great fighter. He just got his ass kicked on two different nights by the same guy because of the same failure. Did Rampage learn what to do later? Yeah, as all good fighters will. Was he able to avoid the same traps against others earlier in his career? Yes, he was. But if you want to get all nitpicky about keeping it in context - then keep it in context.

My comments were about that clip and that fight. In that respect, everything I said about it is absolutely true and correct.

1. He covered up and waited when Vanderlei threw flurries of punches at him
2. He had no counter-offense in boxing range
3. The fact that he had no counter-offense in boxing range allowed vanderlei to close and clinch with no fear of reprisal
4. Because Vanderlei could do that, he was able to win the fight
5. Thus, sitting back and covering up is a bad idea against a good fighter because he may not stop before he's knocked you through the ropes.

It's cool that you're an advocate of Crazy Monkey and all, and I'm not trying to tell you that your school or your teachers are bad or anything. What I'm saying is that if that method of covering is what you build your fight around, you may do okay against lackluster opposition but you'll get beat down against someone who isn't willing to back off and take turns. Anything can work in a fight. But some ideas are better than others. In my book, counter-offense beats pure defense every single time.

[fire cobra]

I belive that RK got the concept of blocking/covering as he does from Muay Thai,in the Muay Thai ring because there are 6 more weapons you can use other than your hands it is a valid cover,
however the Thai fighters never just cover,the idea is as soon as a hand touches your shield you use another weapon at the same time,i call it touch and go,as soon as something touches your cover you go with a attack of your own either elbow, knee, or kick.

I dont think it(covering) is a great defence at all for just boxing i would prefer to evade and hit or move and hit,of course on both of these scenarios hitting first would be the best option if possible.

[migo]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

We weren't talking about Liddell. We were talking about a particular fight, against Vanderlei, and in that fight everything I said about him was spot on. If you want to change the context, that's something different. I was talking about the Vanderlei fight, and that clip specifically, so what I said is a perfectly apt commentary.

No, it's not. You said he had no counter offensive boxing. He clearly does, the fact that he didn't display it in this fight doesn't mean that he doesn't have it. Since you're saying the problem is that he didn't do it, you'd have to look at why he didn't do it, which is clearly something other than his inability to do it.

And again, what Rampage did in the beginning of the fight is not a reflection at all of why he lost. I'm not trying to say Rampage is no good or anything, so you don't need to be all defensive and stick up for his abilities.

I'm not being defensive, in fact I pointed out he sucks at clinch defense. The central point (as I saw it) of your argument was the counter offensive boxing. I addressed that specifically.

He's a great fighter. He just got his ass kicked on two different nights by the same guy because of the same failure.

Exactly. Inability to defend against knees in the clinch. He lost to a different guy for the same reason. What I'm having a problem seeing is how THAT ties in with the validity of CM for defense against punches.

Did Rampage learn what to do later? Yeah, as all good fighters will.

What? No. He got blasted in the clinch by Shogun.

Was he able to avoid the same traps against others earlier in his career? Yes, he was. But if you want to get all nitpicky about keeping it in context - then keep it in context.

Context is always more than one fight. The context is always going to be a number of fights for both fighters. It's never just one fight.

My comments were about that clip and that fight. In that respect, everything I said about it is absolutely true and correct.

1. He covered up and waited when Vanderlei threw flurries of punches at him
2. He had no counter-offense in boxing range

Wrong. He did have it. That he didn't display it is a DIFFERENT issue.

1. The fact that he had no counter-offense in boxing range allowed vanderlei to close and clinch with no fear of reprisal

Again, context is broader. Wanderlei has no fear of reprisal anyway, his fights with Vitor, Mirko, Mike van Arsdale, Mark Hunt and a number of other fighters show that. He knew Vitor and Mirko had dangerous striking, he kept moving forwards against them anyway. Wanderlei wouldn't have stayed back if Rampage was throwing punches, if that was his style he wouldn't have continued fighting Mirko with a closed eye and wouldn't have just kept walking forwards towards Vitor.

1. Because Vanderlei could do that, he was able to win the fight
2. Thus, sitting back and covering up is a bad idea against a good fighter because he may not stop before he's knocked you through the ropes.

I think Muhammad Ali might have something to say about that.

It's cool that you're an advocate of Crazy Monkey and all, and I'm not trying to tell you that your school or your teachers are bad or anything.

None of my teachers taught me CM. I got it from the video. I practiced it for a bit at home before using it. Before watching the video, I was trying to throw punches in training to keep them from punching me (what you advocated) it didn't work - I got knocked out. I tried closing the distance by throwing some punches first and then shooting in, it din't work - I got knocked out, or sprawled on, and that sucked because then they'd be punching from 4 point position. After doing CM, with essentially no instruction, I was able to avoid getting KOed, and close the distance properly so I'd actually get a takedown and end up on top. CM, with minimal practice allowed me to impose my game, and be offensive (although not with boxing, since I wasn't good at it at all). I'm just starting to get an indication that I'll have some good power behind my punches, and maybe 3-6 months from now I'll be able to box in a way that makes people worry a bit. Compared to the amount of time I had to put into CM, that's a lot. Not saying it's not worth it, but there's definitely something to be said for an approach that has a high degree of success for the amount of effort put into it.

Also, your arguments just aren't convincing. You're using a fight that was won by knees in the clinch to argue against the efficacy of a defense intended for punches. A good sample of boxing matches (which I'm sure you have more familiarity with than I do) would be much better to use to look at how well CM fares than an MMA fight.

What I'm saying is that if that method of covering is what you build your fight around, you may do okay against lackluster opposition but you'll get beat down against someone who isn't willing to back off and take turns. Anything can work in a fight. But some ideas are better than others. In my book, counter-offense beats pure defense every single time.

I'm sure Ali had a very good reason for employing pure defense against Foreman.

[Mike Brewer]

He clearly does, the fact that he didn't display it in this fight doesn't mean that he doesn't have it. Since you're saying the problem is that he didn't do it, you'd have to look at why he didn't do it, which is clearly something other than his inability to do it.

This is entirely too desperate, but I'll entertain it. He didn't apply it because the decision to stand and cover allowed Vanderlei to get close enough to take his other options away. There's a rule in soldiering that says, "If you didn't bring it, you ain't got it." It goes for extra bullets, spare wheels, radio batteries, and in this case, counter-offense in boxing range. The stand still and cover routine didn't work because Vanderlei didn't play along. Rampage got the shit kicked out of him because his opponent didn't back off and take turns like he was supposed to. That's the flaw in any defense-based strategy. If the bad guy brings enough ammo to keep on pounding, the defense always cracks. That's why Rampage lost, and that's why covering up and waiting sucks donkey nuts.


I'm going to ignore most of the rest of the reply you posted for now, because I can't take dumb in huge quantities like I used to. I'm sorry. That was uncalled for. I apologize for that. It's actually because Scrubs just came on and I love that show. I guess that means I can take dumb in large quantities. Still, I'll leave you with this, and please highlight it and ask someone to help you with the big words in case it's still not clear:

You're using a fight that was won by knees in the clinch to argue against the efficacy of a defense intended for punches.

Every clinch was preceded by punches, to which Rampage responded with your bullshit defense. Every series of punches ALLOWED Vanderlei to get close, clinch, and knee. If Rampage had any answer for punches against Vanderlei, he might have had better luck stopping the clinch. That's why it's relevant. That's why it makes sense.

And for the record, if you couldn't make punches work, that's your own damned fault. You might ought to have tried going to something like clinching, kicking, takedowns, or any number of other things you could have done. It's good that covering up stopped you from getting hit, and I'm happy that it worked for you. I'd still wager that a successful offense would have worked better, and I'd still wager that if Rampage had any kind of answer for Vanderlei's punches, he would never have had to worry about the knees.