Bruce Lee and Grappling

[bigboywasim]

I remember reading somewhere that Bruce Lee practiced Judo or JJJ for a while. Any of you guys have some information on that. They are saying in the MMA forum that Bruce had no grappling training.

[g-bells]

He did work with Gene Lebell

[WONTONnPHO]

Don't listen to those losers on Sherdog, they're noobs that know nothing lol

[Liberty]

Originally Posted by bigboywasim

I remember reading somewhere that Bruce Lee practiced Judo or JJJ for a while. Any of you guys have some information on that. They are saying in the MMA forum that Bruce had no grappling training.

Reposting [notes in brackets mine]:

http://www.jkdassoc.com/QABlackBeltMag.html

Part of a Black Belt Magazine interview with the late Larry Hartsell:

BB: When you went to [Ed] Parker’s, did you have to drop things you learned from Lee?

Hartsell: Yes, I did because Bruce had adopted boxing by then. He [mixed] it with wing chun kung fu. Also, there were grappling techniques he picked up from Gene LeBell and some stuff from Wally Jay’s small circle jujutsu, which he added to jeet kune do.

BB: What interest did Lee have in grappling?

Hartsell: Before his death, he had added 33 grappling moves to the jeet kune do concept.

BB: He got those from Gene LeBell and Wally Jay?

Hartsell: Wally Jay, Gene LeBell and Hayward Nishioka [Pan-American Games gold medal in 1967; United States AAU National Grand Championship in 1965 National Champion-ships 1965, 1966,1970] And he had some chin-na and silat. He would mix the arts. He would enter to trapping and take down into a submission. If you read Tao of Jeet Kune Do, you’ll see those grappling [techniques].

[Pages115-123 of the published version of Bruce Lee’s, “The Tao of Jeet Kune Do,” over 90% of this chapter on Grappling, in Lee's own hand].

BB: How well do jeet kune do principles apply to grappling?

Hartsell: I think the attack-by-drawing principle, where you deliberately set an opening for the guy to come in so you can counter, [applies well]. You can leave an opening for a side kick, then capture the leg and go for a takedown. Also you can use progressive indirect attack—faking the attack to go into a single-leg takedown and an Achilles-lock submission or some other technique.

BB: So, for the most part, jeet kune do principles work well to move in and go to the ground, after which pure grappling takes over?

Hartsell: Yes, that’s one way. Any range can be closed quickly. In kicking range, you can capture the kick. In boxing range, you can arm-wrap and take him down. Any range can be closed, and you can be on the ground very quickly. I’ve had people at seminars say, “I would just stay outside and kick.” But suppose you’re on a slippery surface; how are you going to kick? Suppose you kick and slip, and the guy’s on top of you. You have to learn to deal with grappling range. Sometimes you cannot dictate your own environment; you’re into grappling range whether you want to be or not.

Part of article: Larry Hartsell: Grappler Extraordinaire:

http://www.martialarm.com/martial-ar...ordinaire.html

Larry Hartsell originally started training in Kempo (with Ed Parker's Group) and, through association with Dan Inosanto, became a student of the late great fighting 'supremo', Bruce Lee. Lee worked at wrestling and boxing with Hartsell because he (Larry) was a heavyweight. Bruce's theory was the bigger and stronger they were in training, the easier the real thing would be in the street.

"He was just getting into grappling at that time" states Larry "and although he (Bruce) himself stated he wasn't very good at it, someone forgot to tell the people he worked out with. He could knock you down, tie you up and choke you out just like you and I would wipe our faces."

(Lee had worked extensively with Wally Jay and Hayward Nishioka during his lifetime and had also worked out with 'Judo' Gene LaBell).

These men would instruct the young Martial Arts master in the throttle-and throw arts and then Bruce would go out and practise on Hartsell. After having been the fall guy for the redoubtable Bruce Lee, Larry developed an avid interest in the grappling arts, and decided to make a specialty of them. Giving up a good' contact fighting career after settling for second place in a National 'Toughman' event... ("I knocked him down more than he knocked me down - I don't know how they score those things")

[Tant01]

Good find...

[Liberty]

With the exception of Lee's own son, Andy Kimura, son of one of Lee's nearest and most cherist friends, Jun Fan instructor, Taky Kimura, had the distinct honor of having been the youngest person ever trained directly by both Taky and Lee.

(parenthesis mine - Liberty)

http://www.pnpages.com/newjkd/andyinterview.htm

Question: What would you say to those critics who say JKD is incomplete and needs additional arts such as Jujitsu and other forms of grappling?

Sifu (Andy) Kimura (son of Taky Kimura): I would say that Bruce had a complete system. Few people know of how extensively Bruce trained in the grappling arts and to what extent he incorporated those principles in his "way". What I mean is Bruce knew Wally Jay and Hayward Nishioka as well as other judoka in Seattle one of them being my father who learned Judo in the internment camps during the Second World War. And if you understand Judo you know where it came from (Jujitsu) how it differs from its parent art and what harmful techniques were taken out and why. If the critics are referring to Brazilian jujitsu. I would say to those critics read extensively about the art (JKD) and watch his movies and it's plain to see the elements of grappling within the art. Furthermore in my opinion it is not practical in a real situation to roll round on the ground and be tied up with someone for that long. Although there is a time and place for everything. My experiences in real confrontations have led me to my conclusions and that is another article....

Question: How long have you been training?

Sifu Kimura: Well I've been around the arts since I was a baby (like the late Brandon Lee) but I would say I have trained more seriously for the last fifteen years.

***********************************************

"I remember one time I was at Bruce's house," said Hayward Nishioka, who was voted into the BLACK BELT Hall of Fame twice for his judo, as both an instructor and a competitor. "I had done a little karate, but I couldn't hold a candle to him (Lee). He was too fast for me; he would tap my head before I even got set.

"Finally I asked Bruce what he would do if I just sat on the ground and waited for him to attack me," continued Nishioka. "He said he'd just walk away."

[Michael Wright]

I have the Jun Fan Grappling curriculum, and I have to be honest it is rudimentary at best. Some basic throws and newaza from Judo, a small amount of locking and grappling from Japanese Ju-jitsu, and some basic Chin Na.

You have to remember that in the 1960's it was nothing short of a miracle and an outrage that anyone would crosstrain in systems, so what Mr Lee achieved in putting together this curriculum in such a short space of time is truly phenomenal.

However this material has been way way surpassed by the suberb grappling material and training available to us here in 2008. Like so many subjects on the JKD forum, we just need to accept that martial arts has come a hell of a long way in the last 40 years. The first person to recognise that would be Mr Lee.

[Wolfeye589]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

I have the Jun Fan Grappling curriculum, and I have to be honest it is rudimentary at best. Some basic throws and newaza from Judo, a small amount of locking and grappling from Japanese Ju-jitsu, and some basic Chin Na.

You have to remember that in the 1960's it was nothing short of a miracle and an outrage that anyone would crosstrain in systems, so what Mr Lee achieved in putting together this curriculum in such a short space of time is truly phenomenal.

However this material has been way way surpassed by the suberb grappling material and training available to us here in 2008. Like so many subjects on the JKD forum, we just need to accept that martial arts has come a hell of a long way in the last 40 years. The first person to recognise that would be Mr Lee.

Agreed. I've heard alot of people claim JKD is useless because it's outdated, much to my chagrin. I still think JKD shouldn't be looked at as a style, but a combat philosophy. It's the duty of a good JKD man to learn modern combat styles, to understand them and be able to counter them. That, in my opinion, is the Heart of JKD and what gives it it's formidability. Some of Mr. Lee's techniques may be outdated now, but the idea of learning as much as you can so you aren't limited is not.

I think Mr. Lee would be the first to realize that and also be the first to adapt.

[Michael Wright]

Great post. Welcome to the forum.

[Wolfeye589]

Thanks. Good to find a forum dedicated to martial arts. I've been studying martial arts (more specifically Jeet Kun Do) for the past half a year or so and still have a very limited experience with it. Now I have a gateway to see what real practitioners are saying.

[lionleo]

thanks..very informative...

[Liberty]

Originally Posted by Wolfeye589

Agreed. I've heard alot of people claim JKD is useless because it's outdated, much to my chagrin. I still think JKD shouldn't be looked at as a style, but a combat philosophy. It's the duty of a good JKD man to learn modern combat styles, to understand them and be able to counter them. That, in my opinion, is the Heart of JKD and what gives it it's formidability. Some of Mr. Lee's techniques may be outdated now, but the idea of learning as much as you can so you aren't limited is not.

I think Mr. Lee would be the first to realize that and also be the first to adapt.

Hopefully, without setting off one of those who Lee would beat today debates, which of Mr. Lee's techniques would you say might be outdated now, I'm mean, given the devastating power and phenomenal speed his techniques were known for even by today's standards.

[Michael Wright]

But Lib, it wasn't his techniques that were known for their devastating power and phenomenal speed - its was him.

Thats what so many people miss about JKD - T H E Y A R E N ' T B R U C E L E E

[Liberty]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

But Lib, it wasn't his techniques that were known for their devastating power and phenomenal speed - its was him.

Thats what so many people miss about JKD - T H E Y A R E N ' T B R U C E L E E

That's what i meant. Now, don't go start getting as bad as Brewer - sheeesh. There, that should draw Mr. B out of the woodwork - LOL!

[Michael Wright]

OK, so therefore I don't understand your question..