Do you believe in Talent?

[Michael Wright]

I'm posting this on the JKD forum so I can use a few good examples.

People who were around him say that Bruce Lee was a phenomenal talent. Others around him say that he became who he was because of an unrelenting work ethic.

I know a number of people have told me that Brandon Lee came to serious martial arts training late in his life, but when he did his development was phenomenal because of his talent. I would maybe argue that he had Guro Inosanto and pretty much every member of the local JKD community at his disposal.

I have watched Paul Vunak for so many years now and frequently marvel at how he does what he does. Then I catch myself and remember that from 1976 to 1984 the man spent 10 hours a day 6 days a week by the side of Guro Inosanto.

So, here is my question to you: Do you believe in talent? Do you believe that people are "gifted" in the martial arts? Or do you think that like ability and progression in any walk of life, there is no secret, it just takes years of hard work.

This isn't a thread about any of the above people, I would really like to hear your own personal experiences, or those of people you train with. And N.B. If you must pitch in with the default answer of "I think its a combination of both" then at least give examples and experiences. Thanks. MW

[Grixti]

I think that talent definitely has a large part to play in martial arts.

If you take 10 people of the same age and background (just to have a fair test) and gave them some juggling balls and gave them 1 hour to try and learn to juggle we would assume that some would do better at the task than others. So what factor makes some enable to do this when others cant? We could argue that it is talent.

Now you might think that this is an obvious conclusion but then you will at least agree that there is such thing as talent. So surely we can apply the same analogy to martial artists, some will certainly have more natural ability to perform a taught technique than others.

Now, if we use the same analogy of the jugglers but extended their time period from 1 hour to 10 weeks the conclusion would be different. The people who performed best in the group after 1 hour wouldnt necessarily perform best in 10 weeks. This would come down to how committed the people are to practice juggling every day. The same applies for martial arts: it doesnt matter how much talent you have if you dont apply it in practicing regularly.

So my conclusion (sorry Michael) is that yes, it is probably a bit of both. But the most important factor of a good fighter is surely the commitment over natural talent. The talent would just provide an advantage to the learner but is not essential.

The fact is that some people will learn to Juggle straight away whilst other may never be able to do it at all, but with commitment and persistence the advantage of Talent becomes less significant.


Im pretty bored so there is my ramble for the night. Thankyou

[Michael Wright]

Actually, thats a pretty good response, so thank you.

[Tant01]

My first experience with natural talent was in Jr. high school. A handsome strapping youg man named Ricky (dunbar) could burn through the 100 yard dash in less than 10.5 seconds! He was incredible to lose to....

I never knew kids like us could be so chiseled or athletic as HE was. It's strange but I sort of made him a benchmark by which to measure myself (and others).

Of course I could never have his genetics. (He was one of my first "african american" friends...) He was seriously phenominal at the young age of 13-14...Unbelievably talented. When we started the hurtles I watched him literally "FLY"... You know?

It would have been something to see where he went but I was fairly transient growing up... Lost track of many friends.

I suppose the short answer is yes, I believe in so called "talent". We tend to find what we're good at and excell to a point that other (less gifted) folks consider it beyond normal standards.

For those of us with a slower (show me) style of learning it can take many years and years of trial and error before the muscle memory and experience and PRACTICE show something like 'results" from all the effort, blood and sweat.

Not all of us are born gifted but we can all grow to some level of proficiency.

I excelled at rock climbing and judo, never did learn to run like the wind...It's just a matter of finding something we like enough to do well. It's not just the martial arts really or JKD in specific. Any old thing we do can become our "way"...

Not every boxer becomes a champion but that guy has to fight lots of us regular "Joes" to get where is...

Eh?

LOL

[Michael Wright]

another good response, I am really interested in these points of view. Cheers Tant.

[Liberty]

Good question!

I have a buddy who was born double-jointed. The first time he saw that scene in ETD where Lee raises his leg in to a shoulder high front kick, pivots, leg still in the air, turns it into a sidekick, points it at Bob Wall and then holds it there, my buddy got up and did the exact same thing. Of, course, because he never works out, has never pursued martial arts with any seriousness, he has basically wasted his "split" advantage.

From my own limited experience, I 'd have to say that talent is an advantage but it must be guided. But that, in it's abscence, hard, properly guided work will produce talent in the same way that one's brain makes up for things, like when someone, for example, goes blind, and their other senses beome much more tuned in to things.

[BKing]

Hi,

Good question Michael...

I think it is a rare combination when "natural talent merges with good work ethic which merges with the right time in history". When these three things happen a "World Class, Once in a Generation"... person comes around who changes the face of _____(fill in the blank). For golf we have Tiger Woods, Basketball, we had Michael Jordan, Martial Arts we had Bruce Lee....business we have Bill Gates...ETC.

But, I also think with a little predisposition (good genes)...PLUS LOTS of work ethic, legends are made...Dan Inosanto, Paul Vunak, Hickson Gracie...to name just a few...but the work ethic and dedication to the art or sport must be there.

I do not think talent alone does it.

Story Time...

Back in the late 1970's...Houston Macteer (sp?) was the fastest human in the world. He was from the south...he would race against trains...He was brought over to Santa Monica College to train with some of our coaches.

I was also an athlete at the time and was asked to tutor him in science...he was a brilliant track and field star. A nice guy. Shy, quiet...but could not seem to make it in the big city. Tons of natural talent...no steroids...just raw speed.

He just faded away....I do not think he had the mental toughness or dedication to continue...of course then came the Olympic Boycott...

Anyway, its a combo of both PLUS the right time when the world is ready to receive the talent. Bruce Lee came when the asian world needed a hero. Growing up in the 60's the only image of asians I ever saw on TV had coolie hats and protuding teeth....Hopsing on Bonanza!!... Bruce came along a shattered that image. He was cool! He made you feel proud being asian...he was the first, at least to me, to do that....right time, right place, talented, driven...and the world was ready for him.

Thanks,
Brenda King
www.TotalDefense4u.com

[g-bells]

talent definately plays a part , but so does work ethic. for instance one may have great reflexes,flexibility, and quick feet. Naturally , they should excell at kicking, movement and have the ability to elude. then you take someone who may not be all that quick,flexible or quick , but through hard work they can bring up their flexiblilty, become quicker at movement through hard work on their feet drills and even though their not as flexible can develop hard and snapping low line kicks.

The less natural will learn his/her weak points and develop their stronger points to help over come their weaknesses.

[eXcessiveForce]

Talent exists, Lucky for most of us. Those with talent often don't live up to their full potential giving those of us who have had to work hard a better chance at catching up to them.

I have met and trained with people who have worked phenomenally hard and yet failed to even become good at what they do. Heck I've had students that just couldn't wrap their heads around things no matter how many different ways of training we tried to use to help them. I've had others that with in moments they learned something they were proficient at it and within a few weeks they were great at it.

Something I have noticed though is for those that things come easy too, they have a hard time remaining focused and really pushing themselves to greatness. Often they just lack that drive because it's hard and everything has always come so easy.


I think over the long term, tenacity and hard work can over come talent. In fact I think many people call the results of tenacity and hard work talent.

[Mike Brewer]

Coming from a similar background (and having spent 10 hours a day 7 days a week by Paul's side ) I have seen talent - and a lack of it. I came to the painful conclusion that no matter what you do and no matter how bad some folks want it, there are people out there who just don't have the ingredients to become good fighters. I have seen some students periodically for well over 10 years now, and they look just like they did when they started. They have a lot of fun and work hard, but the talent just isn't there.

On the other hand, there are natural thoroughbreds who just excel at any damned thing they try. They don't have to work hard for it, and they're naturally gifted.

Then there's MY people. There's a modicum of natural ability strongly supported by determination to get better. In the military, these were the guys who never finished first, but they always finished. They wouldn't drop out if it meant dying. They earned every achievement they got, and a lot of times missed out on the fanfare that came with the superstars because they were just unable to look quite as spectacular doing it.

The advantage that the latter group has over both is that they are accustomed to tough times, and so they're less prone to panic or fail when the going gets really tough. Often, the thoroughbreds are so used to having things easily without terrible effort that when it gets tough, they lack the experience to deal with it. They fold for lack of familiarity. Those with a lack of talent end up failing for...well, lack of talent. But the mules and draft horses have no such difficulty since it's ALWAYS hard for them. Difficult times are just part of the game, so they are even keeled and unflappable under pressure.

Then, of course, there are the thoroughbreds who also have the work ethic and determination of the mules. These are the bastards that scare me!

Conclusion:
Yes, talent exists absolutely, and it can take people far. But determination, will, and audacity can match it given the right raw materials.

[Ghost]

Firstly i think there are those that have talent in martial arts and i dont have much to add in terms of that to what has been said already. But id like to add in terms of the no-hopers..
It depends when you catch people.
If you train someone from a kid, like in thailand, then they tend to be able to do it. Ive not really come across kids that couldnt do it. All of them can. Its only if people start later in life then they can hit that point where they just cant do it. Its usually because they cant move well in the way a bad dancer will never move well and it will always look strained.
BUt catch them as a kid and i think, though im not sure, but i think you can take people to a good level. Im sure this has something to do with the development of the brain and what people are exposed to as they grow up.
So while i feel some people are talented i dont think its beyond the ability of others if they start early enough. But i acknowledge that later in life there are those for whom it is too late to ever be really good.