Bruce and MMA

[Max22]

A lot of MMA guys give Bruce a tremendous amount of credit for being an innovator in the martial arts. Here is a small list of of people from MMA, whom I've heard refer to Lee kindly and speak of his approach well.
Many of the Gracies, Anderson Silva, Bas Rutten, my own BJJ coach. Not an MMA star, but I even heard that Sugar Ray Leonard utilized some things that Bruce did, namely in honeing his accuracy.

The same cannot be said going the other way among many JKDers of a certain mindset. Why is that? There is a certain mindset in some JKD approaches that think the UFC has not revolutionized how one approaches fighting and training martial arts.

On another forum I found this bizarre quote.
"I personally feel that Bruce Lee would grow tired of watching MMA/UFC type events rather quickly, with a comment like maybe ... "Man, is that all there is?" But hey, that's just me!"

While it is hard to say what would have, or would not have piqued Lee's interest, something as dynamic and fluid as MMA would not likely have been something ignored, nor would the lessons it imparts be glossed over to favor his own mental ossification. Lee for instance was a fan, and student of boxing. That didn't seem to bore him. Skilled fighters moving fluidly through the ranges of combat likely wouldn't have bored him either. Likely it would have impressed the hell out of him. Since he borrowed training methods from performance based, sport approaches, does it really seem likely that he would have ignored fighters who could move smoothly through the ranges of a fight?
Doesn't that strain verisimilitude? Just a little?

What are your thoughts?

[Max22]

Actually this is from the same guy from my initial post.
"To me the main difference is that Jeet Kune Do is a structured method of combat! It is not a bunch of crap just haphazardly thrown together for fighting in an octagon or cage!"

Does that seem like a reasonable way to describe the sport of MMA? Just a "bunch of crap haphazardly thrown together?"

Or is it an accumulation of skills absolutely necessary to be successful in an arena where being a complete fighter (albeit of the sport of MMA) is absolutely necessary? It is vastly more scientific than much of JKD has become I am afraid to say, as it has shown that if you come up against a good fighter, by that I mean complete fighter, and you are focused on a single aspect of fighting you will lose because they will take you out of your comfort area. It has shown this empiracaly. This is why single focus guys don't do nearly so well anymore in MMA.

Haphazardly?
Hardly.

[Gongoozler]

I think Lee would appreciate the transformation MMA has had over the years, from essentially being separate art versus separate art into being very nearly a style in and of itself; where the practitioners train in multiple ranges and take what they are likely to encounter during a fight into consideration for their own training.

[ShawnJKD]

There is some validity to the idea that training in seperate arts that focus on certain ranges and then trying to use them together, without an understanding of how to flow from one to the other, is "haphazard" - and that is part of the evolution of MMA. It went from style vs style, to combined styles, to being its own style. You can now train in "MMA" without training in Thai Boxing and BJJ on their own (but using skills from both and other sources).

I must admit though that MMA matches have begun to bore me a bit. There are a lot of bad fights out there, and a lot of fighters I don't enjoy watching. There is also a lot of false drama created to promote events that put MMA into the same vein as Pro Wrestling - so let me be clear that it is the "sport" itself as a spectacle that has begun to bore me, not MMA as an approach to training...oh, and I'm not the guy quoted at the start of this thing.

Shawn

[Max22]

Originally Posted by ShawnJKD

There is some validity to the idea that training in seperate arts that focus on certain ranges and then trying to use them together, without an understanding of how to flow from one to the other, is "haphazard" - and that is part of the evolution of MMA. It went from style vs style, to combined styles, to being its own style. You can now train in "MMA" without training in Thai Boxing and BJJ on their own (but using skills from both and other sources).

I must admit though that MMA matches have begun to bore me a bit. There are a lot of bad fights out there, and a lot of fighters I don't enjoy watching. There is also a lot of false drama created to promote events that put MMA into the same vein as Pro Wrestling - so let me be clear that it is the "sport" itself as a spectacle that has begun to bore me, not MMA as an approach to training...oh, and I'm not the guy quoted at the start of this thing.

Shawn

Shawn,
I don't think it has ever been haphazard, so much as it has been scientific, and built from the ground up. What is trained gets tested empirically and if it doesn't produce gets canned. This was no different than Bruce's investigative method.

The fighters, at least in the upper echelon's are becoming more complete and flowing through the ranges smoothly. From kicking to punching, to standing grappling, to grappling/submission, back to the feet in amazing ways. Those training methods are something that I think Bruce would have studied hard, if he wasn't somehow already involved (which I think there is a good chance he would have been were he still around).

Are there some bad fights? SUre, but that was the case with boxing too, and Bruce appreciated what boxing had to offer and he studied its elites. He would do the same to day with MMA I think.

Also, I know you aren't the guy quoted. I know exactly who that is.

Thanks for commenting!
-max

[ShawnJKD]

I was thinking of the very early UFC's (not current day) for the haphazard idea - there was a period of time where the fighters from "styles" realized their game was short in different aspects and (finally) started to cross-train, but the cross-training was not refined and was generally done in different places - ie. go to BJJ place for BJJ, a Thai Boxing place for Thai Boxing...mostly I think it was stand-up guys going and getting some BJJ. THEN the blending and figuring out how it went together started. That's the impression I have from watching the evolution of the fighters and from being around through that era (early 90's). And, of course, its a generalization. I know there were guys already ahead of the game with a thought out approach.

I don't believe there is anything haphazard about current MMA training.

Shawn

[ShawnJKD]

...oh, and by "being around" I didn't mean to suggest I was involved as a fighter or coach. I just mean that I was actively training (JKD) and was watching the MMA events, keeping an eye to what was going on there as it was certainly an exciting thing at the time.

[SixFootFeather]

Much of what we are seeing in MMA has truly begun to feel somewhat generic, and certainly predictable.

But I think that a change is coming, and I think that it will come from JKD or JKDC camps. Marc Denny has a strong belief that empty hand Kali (his Kali includes the Inosanto Blend) has much to offer in the cage.

The Keysi guys (who are full instructors under Guro Dan) have some interesting ideas that they seem to be developing for MMA over in the UK--

YouTube - S2C8 MMA TRAINING 1

Eddie Bravo's BJJ is also very exciting, and I think we'll see more of his stuff on the ground in MMA.

[ShawnJKD]

I've been lucky enough to train with Crafty Dog at a few seminars and see some of the Kali Tudo material. The new "Running Dog" approach to ground work looks really interesting. Marc seems to be having trouble finding someone willing to take his material to the cage and compete - but I really look forward to seeing that happen.

Shawn

[Max22]

Originally Posted by SixFootFeather

Much of what we are seeing in MMA has truly begun to feel somewhat generic, and certainly predictable.

But I think that a change is coming, and I think that it will come from JKD or JKDC camps. Marc Denny has a strong belief that empty hand Kali (his Kali includes the Inosanto Blend) has much to offer in the cage.

The Keysi guys (who are full instructors under Guro Dan) have some interesting ideas that they seem to be developing for MMA over in the UK--

YouTube - S2C8 MMA TRAINING 1

Eddie Bravo's BJJ is also very exciting, and I think we'll see more of his stuff on the ground in MMA.

I love Eddie's rubber guard, but I actually think it has a couple of limitations. Namely its emphasis on the over hook. GSP, took massive advantage of that in his fight against BJ Penn. If you can get the leg opposite off your hip, then the pass is pretty elementary. However it is wonderful for tying your opponent up and limiting his striking options while being dangerous on the submissions and turnovers front.

Neat that two poster's have mentioned the Kali Tudo material. i am actually about to order those dvds now. I'll let you all know what I think.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Max22

I love Eddie's rubber guard, but I actually think it has a couple of limitations. Namely its emphasis on the over hook. GSP, took massive advantage of that in his fight against BJ Penn. If you can get the leg opposite off your hip, then the pass is pretty elementary. However it is wonderful for tying your opponent up and limiting his striking options while being dangerous on the submissions and turnovers front.

Neat that two poster's have mentioned the Kali Tudo material. i am actually about to order those dvds now. I'll let you all know what I think.

That would be good!

TY

[SixFootFeather]

Originally Posted by ShawnJKD

Marc seems to be having trouble finding someone willing to take his material to the cage and compete - but I really look forward to seeing that happen.

Shawn

It's unfortunate to say that that's not surprising. Anytime anything new comes around, it can take a long time to see it be put to the test. And no matter how effective, it's only ever as good as the person implementing it. So the challenge is not just to find someone who's willing to devote time to it, but who's actually really gifted. I mean, you can easily imagine Anderson Silva spending six months with it and changing the whole game.

[Max22]

Originally Posted by SixFootFeather

It's unfortunate to say that that's not surprising. Anytime anything new comes around, it can take a long time to see it be put to the test. And no matter how effective, it's only ever as good as the person implementing it. So the challenge is not just to find someone who's willing to devote time to it, but who's actually really gifted. I mean, you can easily imagine Anderson Silva spending six months with it and changing the whole game.

Silva is just open minded enough to try it. I know one of his favorite elbow strikes he saw in a Tony Jaa movie and thought it would work. His trainers said nah, don't even waste your time. He started training it lots and lots and sure enough it works just fine. Its his reverse up elbow.

I'm sure you've seen it, but here it is.
YouTube - Anderson Silva amazing KO

I hear alot of talk about the efficacy of the straight lead, I'd like to see one of its proponents, Teri Tom, or Wong, or someone teach it to Silva, or GSP, or Penn and see if they can make it work well. The UFC and other MMA events are not the end all be all of what is real, but they are an excellent lab, to try your none street arsenal.

[SixFootFeather]

Originally Posted by Max22

Silva is just open minded enough to try it. I know one of his favorite elbow strikes he saw in a Tony Jaa movie and thought it would work. His trainers said nah, don't even waste your time. He started training it lots and lots and sure enough it works just fine. Its his reverse up elbow.

I'm sure you've seen it, but here it is.
YouTube - Anderson Silva amazing KO

That is still one of the most phenomenal elbows I've ever seen. I'd just love to see what Anderson would do under six months with the Dog Brothers.

I hear alot of talk about the efficacy of the straight lead, I'd like to see one of its proponents, Teri Tom, or Wong, or someone teach it to Silva, or GSP, or Penn and see if they can make it work well. The UFC and other MMA events are not the end all be all of what is real, but they are an excellent lab, to try your none street arsenal.

Absolutely. I could see GSP's explosiveness really doing something with the straight lead. It would be scary. Even Vunak in The Enigma noted GSP's prowess, though he also thinks very highly of BJ's striking.

Actually, Anderson, GSP and BJ are my favorite MMA fighters! There's so much untapped territory in MMA still; it would be great to see Sifu Wong, Teri and the Dog Bros. connect with these guys.

[Max22]

Sixfootleather,
I think BJ could make itwork too. When he is on, his lead hand is super, super active, accurate and upsetting to his opponents. it wrecks their timing. Penn/GSP 1, Penn/Riggs, Penn/Sherk (on my blog I think I called it right. Penn's lead hand caused Sherk to have to shoot from much further out. Hence no take downs)