Who is John McNabney what are his credentials?

[JGodan78]

I'm new to this JKD thing,

What does 2nd Generation Jeet Kune Do Instructor mean?

And is there any certification or who certifies you to be classified as this?

This is a little foreign to me for being classified as this. There are no pictures or documentation on his website concerning his background.

Can someone please provide me some further input on this?

There are a lot of people saying they are the official JKD instructors out there who are just living a lie and I just need some info from independent variable sources so I can research the truth just a little more.

Thanks

[Tant01]

John McNabney is a member of our forum, why not look him up and ask him in a private message.

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by JGodan78

What does 2nd Generation Jeet Kune Do Instructor mean? And is there any certification or who certifies you to be classified as this?

I’ll make this as short as I can.

Mr Lee’s art was labelled one of three things depending on the time period: Jun Fan Gung Fu, The Tao of Chinese Gung Fu, and Jeet Kune Do. Leaving these various names aside, three people were formally certified to teach his art during his lifetime. They were Taky Kimura, James Lee and Dan Inosanto. All of these men are 1st Generation Instructors because they were directly certified by Mr Lee himself. Two other men are recognised as 1st Generation Instructors and they are Ted Wong and Daniel Lee. Mr Bruce Lee never got round to formally certifying these gentlemen as instructors, but they were given permission to teach his art and no one I know disputes that, either the Lee family or Dan Inosanto – who quotes both of them as 1st Generation Instructors in his 1980 book on JKD.

And so, to answer your question, a 2nd Generation Instructor is someone who is certified under one of these 1st Generation Instructors. For example, I am a 2nd Generation Instructor because I am certified under Guro Dan Inosanto. A 3rd Generation Instructor would be someone certified under myself for example, as so it goes on.

Here is where the line becomes blurred: There are a range of people who were 1st Generation students under Mr Lee, but never certified or qualified as instructors by him, in any form. However, several of these people have taken it upon themselves to step out as instructors and teach "the original art of Bruce Lee". That they studied under him is not in question, that they were ever qualified under him is something that is very simple to trace.

Who is and who isn’t a certified instructor, with a legitimate paper trail and lineage back to certification from Mr Lee, is actually very straightforward. What makes it complicated is that far too many people are so blinded by their obsession and idolisation of the late Mr Lee, that they will spend years training with a guy if he says he once cut Bruce Lee’s hair. And come on, seriously, did you see the guy’s hair??

[JGodan78]

Originally Posted by Tant01

John McNabney is a member of our forum, why not look him up and ask him in a private message.

Google can do this in seconds; the question was more general in how JKD determines "instructors" and what certifies them.

In other martial arts, "instructors" can be anyone from a Brown/Red Belt to several degrees of black.

In JKD, does the term "instructor" classify as the same level as a "master" in other styles, where as they received the complete system of JKD and is certified?

What were the second generation certifications? Was is in a letter, actual certificates on the wall or was verbal communication (noted in a book, ect.)?

This way I know what I am looking at if I want to look for a school later on and expand my knowledge into another art.

[Happy Cat]

This brings up the whole Concepts v Original debate again. Inosanto is the only instructor under Bruce who is certifying instructors.

So if you want a "legitimate" certified instructor, you are virtually insuring that you will be studying Concepts. My understanding is that McNabney has studied with a number of first generation students, as well as Inosanto. He has also worked with the Wedndsday night group.

As someone who is more interested in the June Fan arts and actual JKD, not Kali, his studies with those students would be more important to me that his cert from Inosanto.

To each his own. But when someone begins to refer to some instructors as "legitimate", you know that they are in the Concepts camp. Finding out if someone knows JKD and whether they are actually legitimate is not as simple as looking for a cert. I know instructors with legitimate Inosanto certs who, in my opinion, do not know much about JKD.

Certs are a good way for Inosanto's students to control and earn from JKD. Remember that some of the people who are responding to you, and who will piss all over this post are also part of that certification system.

I have never been hands on with McNabney, but I do believe he has a good reputation, and one day I will make it over there.

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Happy Cat

Inosanto is the only instructor under Bruce who is certifying instructors.

So if you want a "legitimate" certified instructor, you are virtually insuring that you will be studying Concepts.

Certs are a good way for Inosanto's students to control and earn from JKD. Remember that some of the people who are responding to you, and who will piss all over this post are also part of that certification system.

Ted Wong issues certification in Jeet Kune Do, so does Jerry Poteet, so does Steve Golden, so does Patrick Strong, so does Leo Fong......I could go on. In the spirit of impartiality don't take my word for it, as one example have a look at "Original JKD" Instructor Lamar Davis's certificates:

Certifications

Sorry, that probably does "piss all over your post", but thats your fault for giving wrong information.

My post clearly outlined that I acknowledge, as does Guro Inosanto, that two individuals were never certified to teach Bruce Lee's art, but are accepted as having permission to do so and are therefore considered qualified. So I never said it was all about certification, but it is about a trackable lineage.

There are a range of people in the world teaching JKD that were never certified OR given permission to teach the art. Yet not only do they openly teach it, they also certify other people to teach it. In any other martial art or discipline in life this would never be tolerated, but because its JKD people philosophise their way out of a need to be qualified to teach something. If a qualification or certificaton to teach JKD means nothing, then why did the founder of the art introduce a certification system?

Food for thought, try not to choke on it.

[Happy Cat]

Try reading a little closer Mike. I said that the only Instructor under Bruce who was issuing certs was Inosanto. The questioner asked about first and second generation instructors.

We all know that there are a lot of certs out there. And I know from your earlier posts that you are profiting from yours. But as far as the original three instructors under Bruce are concerned only Inosanto is issuing any. You know this, so don’t try to fool the new kids.

By the time Bruce died he apparently did regret setting up the certification system. As you should know, he ordered the schools closed, and Inosanto made Bruce a promise as to what he would and would not teach.

Here is the bottom line: Most of what is being taught by “jkd” instructors, including those certified by the only original instructor who is issuing such certs, is a mixture of Indonesian martial arts and has little to do with the methods actually taught by Bruce. This is done under the theory that JKD is ever evolving and it has apparently now evolved into Indonesian arts. The fact that Inosanto is Indonesian is somehow a coincidence.

That being a fact: I have no doubt that JKD Concepts is a formidable art. But it is not JKD as Bruce taught it or as described in the TAO.

Some Instructors, both Original and Concepts, with certs are excellent, some are not. Some Instructors without certs are excellent, some are not.

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Happy Cat

Try reading a little closer Mike. I said that the only Instructor under Bruce who was issuing certs was Inosanto.

But all of the people I mentioned, and many others, are claiming to be Instructors under Bruce Lee. So, are you saying that they are all charlatans and the only one qualified to issue certification is Dan Inosanto? Or is it OK for them to issue certification and not Dan Inosanto, is that how it works? I'm confused.

Originally Posted by Happy Cat

I know from your earlier posts that you are profiting from yours.

No, you clearly know nothing. Over the last 18 years I have spent in excess of £100,000 on my studies, so would have absolutely no problem admitting if I earned money from my instruction in the arts. Anyone who has trained for that length of time, and spent that amount of money to gain their skills, is surely justified in earning a living from their art. Well, as it happens my friend, I don't. My living is earned outside of teaching, and I charge nothing to my students over and above the hire of a hall to teach from, and I teach the Police and Military for free. In the absence of fact you are trying to discredit my point of view by painting me as a money grabber, nice try.

Originally Posted by Happy Cat

By the time Bruce died he apparently did regret setting up the certification system. As you should know, he ordered the schools closed, and Inosanto made Bruce a promise as to what he would and would not teach.

Guro Inosanto was only one of every single Bruce Lee student who made a promise to not commercialise JKD. His other students who made this promise also include all of the other afore mentioned people who now travel the world making a very good living from teaching the art to thousands of people each year. They also, to re-enforce my point, make a lot of money from certification programs. JKD was commercialised a long time ago, by just about everyone involved, with a few exceptions. You place the blame at Mr Inosanto's door because it suits your point of view.

Originally Posted by Happy Cat

Here is the bottom line: Most of what is being taught by “jkd” instructors, including those certified by the only original instructor who is issuing such certs, is a mixture of Indonesian martial arts and has little to do with the methods actually taught by Bruce. This is done under the theory that JKD is ever evolving and it has apparently now evolved into Indonesian arts. The fact that Inosanto is Indonesian is somehow a coincidence.

As always Happy Cat, you just continue to type nonsense. As an instructor you are issued with two seperate certifications, one in Jun Fan Gung Fu and one in Filipino Martial Arts. I teach a Jun Fan class and I teach a Filipino Martial Arts class, seperate and distinct, you see them as the same because you've watched a few DVDs and read some books. The Jun Fan material I teach is Bruce Lee's original outine from the period of 1967 to 1972, I know this because my curriculum given to by Guro Inosanto, is in Bruce Lee's words. I know it gauls you to understand this, but the reason all of this material was left in the hands of Guro Inosanto, is because he was the man chosen by Bruce Lee to pass on his art of Jeet Kune Do. And I can testify as one of his students that he has done so, untouched. Get over it.

And by the way, Guro Dan Inosanto is American, born in Stockton California and has lived there all his life. He has never even been to Indonesia. Great job on your facts again.

Originally Posted by Happy Cat

Some Instructors, both Original and Concepts, with certs are excellent, some are not. Some Instructors without certs are excellent, some are not.

I agree, and as I have stated on here before I have trained extensively under both. I was once a member of the Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do Nucleus and respect all of it's members. I am not trying to discredit any of them, we all have something to offer. The only person I take issue with on this subject is you, and that is because you present innacurate history and second hand hearsay as fact, and as long as you continue to do so, I will be here to answer it.

[Tant01]

Gentlemen...
My only experience with (JF)JKD is through a second generation associate under Inosanto so I don't know much about POLITICS or what hurts who's feelings, eh?

I've never read much into who is teaching WHAT and I could really care less about a piece of paper?

The guy seems like an honorable student of the "way" so it's not much of a stretch to assume he could teach me a thing or two...

I'm open to HIS interpretation of the way.


John? Are you reading this? What's your story brother? I know you've been doing this for a while?

Press on purple dragon!

~Tant01

[Michael Wright]

Just to be clear, I havent at any stage mentioned John in any of my replies, everything I have written had been generic around history and certification.

Its easy when you arent part of something to stand back and say you dont care about bits of paper and politics, but when false information is being bounded around about someone I respect then I do care.

And I've said this a hundred times on here: If you are teaching YOUR interpretation of the way then call it YOUR interpretation of the way. If you are calling it someone else's, especially someone very famous and commercially attractive, then questions will always be asked.

[JGodan78]

Originally Posted by Happy Cat

By the time Bruce died he apparently did regret setting up the certification system. As you should know, he ordered the schools closed, and Inosanto made Bruce a promise as to what he would and would not teach.

This caught my curiosity, was Bruce developing a certification system but never had a chance to finish it due to his untimely death? Is there any information of what the certification system might have been?

And why would he order the schools to close? I thought he would like for his system to live on as his eternal legacy to the world.

The history behind the martial arts is as interesting as studying the martial arts. Thanks for the link to the cert it gives me a good reference to what to look for in a school.

You guys are really helpful and informative.

[Happy Cat]

JGordon78

You got that right. The history is very interesting. As with most things involving JKD there is a lot of controversy and a lot of different viewpoints. Here is my view, which some here will not like much.

Bruce developed JKD in the mid to late 1960s and into the early 70s. The art continued to evolve during that time. James Lee from Oakland California was instrumental in the development of JKD.

Bruce began teaching in Seattle and founded a Kung Fu school there. In the mid 60s Bruce moved to Oakland and lived with James. They founded another school there. Dan Inosanto headed up the school in LA.

This was all before Bruce became a big movie star (though he was known for his work on the green hornet). At some point Bruce seems to have decided that he did not want to train a rival. He stopped teaching certain techniques that had been drawn from Wing Chung, and he asked Inosanto, and possibly others to refrain from passing on those methods. This is documented in published interviews with Dan Inosanto. Bruce began teaching difrent students diferent things.

Shortly thereafter he ordered the schools closed. Another aspect of this is that Bruce was developing a style without style. He called JKD the pathless path. He believed that the schools were creating a style and that this was contrary to the philosophical underpinnings of JKD.

Bruce and James died suddenly and within months of each other. From that point on there has been a big split in the JKD community. JKD concepts accepts Bruce’s idea that the art is personal, adaptable and ever evolving. JKD concepts emphasizes Indonesian martial arts and Ju Jitsu.

The other school of thought is usually referred to as Original. Its practitioners study JKD as practiced by Bruce and James Lee. Some people also call this art June Fan Kung Fu, but that name is also used to describe Bruce’s earlier art before he developed JKD, so use of that term can be confusing.

Another interesting twist is that some of the Original practitioners follow JKD as Bruce taught it toward the end (Ted Wong, Tommy C…) without the Wing Chung trapping. While others believe that Bruce was withholding information toward the end and prefer to practice JKD including its Wing Chung influences.

There is a lot here, and a lot can be learned from each branch of the tree. Unfortunately the various branches do not generally play nice together.

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by JGodan78

This caught my curiosity, was Bruce developing a certification system but never had a chance to finish it due to his untimely death? Is there any information of what the certification system might have been?

And why would he order the schools to close? I thought he would like for his system to live on as his eternal legacy to the world.

Mr Lee had a certification system for both students and instructors. You were issued certification with your rank as a student, and then a select few were issued certification with rank as an instructor (level 3 or above). Mr Lee issued certification in three arts, depending on the period in question. Taky Kimura and James Lee both received instructor certification in Jun Fan Gung Fu. Dan Inosanto was certified as an instructor in Jun Fan Gung Fu, the Tao of Chinese Gung Fu, and Jeet Kune Do. As I said in an earlier post, its best not to get too wrapped up in the names, they were just labels that changed over time.

Mr Lee regretting his certification system is not something I have ever heard of from any of my teachers. Certainly every student of Bruce Lee I have met seems very proud of and openly displays their certification (instructor level or student level). I doubt they would all do this if Mr Lee had expressed any form of regret on the matter. But sadly he isn’t here to clarify, so it’s a moot point.

I have no argument with the notion that Mr Lee asked for public instruction of his art to be ceased, this is a fairly well known fact. For many years after his death, his students only shared their art in small private groups, or personal tuition to friends. Over time, more of his students decided to open up and share the art, the most prominent of these being Dan Inosanto. I have no argument that Mr Inosanto, or the many other Bruce Lee students who followed suit, have opened his art up to the world. This may indeed be against the wishes of their teacher, and I know many Bruce Lee aficionados scoff that this “commercialisation”.

Me? I say thank you to each and every one of them. If they hadn’t taken the decision to stop living in the past, and move forward and share their art, then I for one would have been denied one of the biggest passions in my life. Thousands of other people around the world, from regular seminar attendees to people like Police Officers and Soldiers, would be without an art that has brought them so much benefit. Myself, Happy Cat, and every other person on this forum who is a JKD student would probably have never had the chance to experience this art, if it wasn’t for this “commercialisation”.

[JGodan78]

I’m enjoying the en-lighting discussion..

Originally Posted by Happy Cat

He called JKD the pathless path. He believed that the schools were creating a style and that this was contrary to the philosophical underpinnings of JKD.

JKD concepts accepts Bruce’s idea that the art is personal, adaptable and ever evolving. JKD concepts emphasizes Indonesian martial arts and Ju Jitsu.

If this is true, then I should expect a true JKD instructor being able to teach the original system as a base (or reference to) on top of the continual improvements made by others. So over time I would suspect that what was taught early on by Bruce should not be the same as taught today as other’s improved the system, thus there would not be a true “system” but every “system” of JKD would be considered the true system, as long as it is based on JKD founding’s.

Is this applicable today?

With the concepts of Bruce’s idea, how has today’s true Jeet Kune Do instructors continued to adapt the style with this continual evolution?

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

This may indeed be against the wishes of their teacher, and I know many Bruce Lee aficionados scoff that this “commercialization”.

From those who are second generation instructors, is there any insight why Bruce was against the commercialization of JKD? I’m sure he enjoyed the benefits of his movies; why not enjoy the same with JKD.

[Happy Cat]

JGordan78,

I am glad to see your questions. You are now on the path. Very few signposts out here. The purple dragon is probably a good place to start.

My view: Bruce’s idea of a personalized, evolving and adaptable art was way ahead of its time. I believe that Bruce taught different students different things in part because, as his movie career took off, he wanted to make sure that he was the top dog and that he would always have an advantage. But another reason was his understanding that different people have different talents and abilities, so he helped them customize JKD.

But most have now institutionalized this and made their JKD into another uniform style.

While Bruce was alive JKD was not a money maker. The school in Oakland could not pay the rent, and James ended up teaching students at his house. It was not until the end, when Bruce’s movies were a hit that people wanted learn JKD. And Bruce did not want to teach someone to challenge him.

Bruce was genius. When you read the Tao, which is a somewhat disorganized collection of his notes, you can glimpse the nature of that genius.