Trapping...Does it work?

[Justthefacts]

NASZ: You could make the argument that Chuck Norris was the best point fighter of the 1960's. He was a world class martial artist, yet when he and Bruce Lee sparred at Lee's home in Culver City, which of the 3 core arts of JKD do you think gave Norris the most problems? According to those present (e.g., Dan Inosanto) at some of those sparring sessions, Bruce Lee's ability to close the gap and TRAP gave Norris fits. Many of Bruce Lee's students were legitimate tough guys and during sparring sessions, once Bruce got into trapping range, his students knew that the ballgame was over. James DeMile, Bob Baker, Larry Hartsell, Leo Fong, Dan Lee, Ed Hart and others saw the effectiveness of trapping first-hand. It's important to remember that Bruce Lee's trapping philosophy was to fire the lead hand BEFORE trapping with the rear hand. Bruce always thought about hitting first. There will be times, however, when there is an obstruction on the line. You then have two choices. You either go around the obstruction or you trap.

[Tim Mousel]

Whether trapping works or not I don't think an effective argument can be made by saying it works because Bruce Lee did it. That's like saying track coaches should train their sprinters to run the last 20 meters of the 100m with their arms stretched out to thier sides while looking around. "That's an effective sprinting technique because Usain Bolt shattered the world record while doing it, therefore it must work for everyone".

[John McNabney]

Tim..... Right On! I think the problem is define trapping? They are many, many ways to trap and some are not made by contact as well



Keep "IT" Real,

[Justthefacts]

Tim: As I mentioned on the prior page of this thread, many 2nd and 3rd Generation JKD instructors have used trapping in REAL LIFE confrontations. Jeremy Lynch, Richie Carrion, Lamar Davis, Paul Vunak, Dwight Woods, Dave Carnell, the list goes on and on. Bruce Lee's students proved that trapping works. Bob Bremer, James DeMile, Jesse Glover, Leroy Garcia, Patrick Strong, Bob Baker, Al Novak, James Lee, Larry Hartsell all were/are proponents of trapping. It is simply one of the tools used in JKD. Nothing more, nothing less. If Bruce Lee thought that trapping wasn't functional, why include it as one of his 5 ways of ATTACK? It's interesting how some people can recognize Bruce Lee's genius, yet ignore some of the techniques that he relied upon to save his butt.

[Tim Mousel]

Just to restate again, my argument is about complex trapping sequences and not a simple pak or lop. Even if you can name a handful of martial artists that can do complex trapping they're the exception and not the rule. If I could look into a crystal ball and see that one of my students would be in a serious fight 6 months from now, the last thing I would teach him would be complex trapping. It's just too improbable that the AVERAGE martial artist could successfully do it.

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Tim Mousel

Just to restate again, my argument is about complex trapping sequences and not a simple pak or lop. Even if you can name a handful of martial artists that can do complex trapping they're the exception and not the rule. If I could look into a crystal ball and see that one of my students would be in a serious fight 6 months from now, the last thing I would teach him would be complex trapping. It's just too improbable that the AVERAGE martial artist could successfully do it.

Bravo.

Its such a fundamentally crucial point. Our role as instructors is to provide the right training for the person stood in front of us, who have come to learn how to defend themselves. That person isn't interested in what a handful of exceptional people may or may not have done once, according to anecdotal testimony. They care about what they can achieve within the balance of a normal life. In that respect, our first responsibility is to be honest and realistic.

[Justthefacts]

Tim: My post was in response to the following comment...

Whether trapping works or not I don't think an effective argument can be made by saying it works because Bruce Lee did it.

You made no distinction between simple and compound trapping. In addition, some posters in this thread seem to lump the two together and then demand proof that trapping works. When multiple examples are provided, the examples are either ignored or a distinction is suddenly drawn between functional and non-functional trapping techniques. At its base level, I would argue that Bruce Lee's students were able to use trapping to kick ass, 2nd Generation JKD instructors have used trapping to kick ass, and 3rd Generation JKD instructors have used trapping to kick ass. I've posted the following link on another thread, but I think it deserves a 2nd look.

BRUCE LEE UNDERESTIMATED

[Justthefacts]

Michael: If the focus is teaching your students how to defend themselves in the streets, isn't any example that you provide them anecdotal? Outside of winning the 1958 La Salle High School boxing championship, the only "proof" that Bruce Lee could provide his students was his experiences as a street fighter. Several students from the Seattle period were either present or took part in street fights involving their Sifu, but after Bruce moved to Oakland, only James Lee and Dan Inosanto witnessed Bruce engage in a street fight. The only salient conclusion, however, was that Bruce Lee demonstrated to his students that trapping CAN be an effective tool in the streets. If you are going to war, why bring a knife and a grenade, but leave the gun at home? IMO, a JKD instructor is doing his students a disservice by ignoring the totality of the art.

[Wi-Stickboxer]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

Bravo.

Its such a fundamentally crucial point. Our role as instructors is to provide the right training for the person stood in front of us, who have come to learn how to defend themselves. That person isn't interested in what a handful of exceptional people may or may not have done once, according to anecdotal testimony. They care about what they can achieve within the balance of a normal life. In that respect, our first responsibility is to be honest and realistic.

I don't think this thread will ever go beyond a surface understanding of trapping and it's uses. In the Tao of JKD one of the Five Ways of Attack is Immobilization Attack. At that point it was no longer call Hand Immobilization Attack. A "trap" has many meanings besides Wing Chun,and for every boxer or "streetfighter" who switches over to a "trapping" based delivery system there are quite literally hundreds of thousands who don't. Why? It wouldn't be effective for them.

Most of the posters here seem to think that questioning "trapping" is some sort of personal attack on Bruce Lee. That's just silly. Lee questioned everything,if Wing Chun was "it",why not stay there?

As far as Paul Vunak and trapping,Paul calls "trapping" a range. Some of us would call this clinch range. When Paul is using his Thai Clinch,raking the eyes and using HKE,he calls that "trapping". He has a post on here called the State of The Union,where he addresses,among other things,trapping.

One of the quotes from that is "if I say 'trapping',and you think 'pak sao',then you've got a very limited view of trapping".

If you open your mind a bit you'll find the world (and JKD) don't start and end with Bruce Lee...

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Justthefacts

Michael: If the focus is teaching your students how to defend themselves in the streets, isn't any example that you provide them anecdotal?

The short answer to that question is no.

10 years ago, when I first started teaching, I would say that the majority of what I taught was anecdotal. I was borrowing the wisdom and experience of other people, and passing this on. I’ve been involved in what I do for almost twenty years now, and reached a stage some time ago where what I teach is from my own experiences. I don’t talk about what someone else did on the street, or in the ring, or in the training hall, I take what is applicable from my own experiences and apply it to the individual in front of me.

I know you are a great supporter and advocate of Bruce Lee, and for the record I applaud that. One of the most important things I took from his words was “The truth in combat is different for each individual, you must research your own experiences for the truth”. What I teach is my own experiences in the world of combat, and I keep on researching as many new experiences as I can. The most important lesson I offer to any student is a strong encouragement for them to do the same.

Originally Posted by Justthefacts

IMO, a JKD instructor is doing his students a disservice by ignoring the totality of the art.

This is an argument that I come across all the time, and the response I give is they are not my students, I do not own them. I am very clear with everyone what it is I teach, it is my personal expression of the arts, and it is simple, functional, and honest. Its a free country, so if people like the sound of that then they come to learn from me, and get my take on things. Everyone in the JKD family has a different flavour, what Paul Vunak offers is completely different to what Erik Paulson offers and so on. This is the way it should be, JKD should never be standardised. When a student trains with me I teach them what I believe in. I don’t see the point in standing in front of anyone and pretending to be something I am not.

However, if someone comes to me with their needs and it is clear they will be better served by one of my friends, teachers or peers in the family - I refer them on. Whilst training with me many, if not all of the students I have taught, have also crosstrained with the likes of Terry Barnett, Neil Mcleod, Rick Faye, Erik Paulson etc in order to give them all the different flavours. Far from doing people a disservice, I try to encourage them to experience as much as they can from as many different sources. If totality is what they want then totality they can have, but I don’t believe totality comes from one source.

[NaSZ]

Really, I believe trapping works maybe in the 70s, but I feel in this new millenium with such great allround fighters this wont work. maybe you can Paksao or Lapsao ones, but do all those fancy things is just for the movies. If I look to MMA UFC, Cagefighters, Rio Heroes I do not believe in you can trap. You just Punch, Kick low and go to grapplin or lock. Maybe those students were good way back in the 70s, but most of them were Karate men and if I C those footage of them..I do not believe they would be any good in 2009. Just trying to think they would do K1. I dont think they would have any sucses.
They would be in big trouble. Thats the way I feel...and If I think of them do some kind of MMA (allround sport) they would be punished big time, cuz Karate got some great kicks and ok punches, but thats all. I dont say Karate is no good! but its just limited.

Or is it that I dont know what trapping is?? or is trapping not for everyone?? I try to find an answer.

BTW I would never attack Bruce Lee by doubting his philosophy...cuz it was more than trapping. Isnt it that Bruce kept devoloping himself and his JKD and at the end there wasnt any trapping left in his JKD. Maybe if he lived longer or still was with us..he would throw out the trapping cuz he would also notice that fighters getting better and more allround. If you put Bruce in the UFC...Hmmm I dont believe he would trap. Would he?