Trapping...Does it work?

[fire cobra]

Many years ago after studying Wing Chun for a few years I decided to do the rounds around the local Boxing Gyms In order to try and trap the Boxers hands the way I could do in Wing Chun,did it work?..yes but I got my ears rang(and perforated) a few times from hooks and had to drink chicken soup for a few days quite a few times before I really learnt what I could do with the trapping.

Lots of times after training the lads I boxed with asked me how I was doing what I was doing to their hands,these were amateurs some of whom had had 50 plus bouts and boxed for Uk etc,one in particular added the trapping to his game.

So does trapping work? depending on your experience yes for sure it does.

After I had done a couple of years in the Boxing gyms I went to the Thai Boxing gyms with a view to making the trapping work against Thai Boxers(the english variety) did it work? could I do it? thats another story!!.

[Michael Wright]

I would never doubt anything you say brother, but I do find that story absolutely staggering.

I trained in trapping for 15 years, with some of the best people in the world, before I started Boxing. Unless you are talking about a lucky check of the hand here and there against a stray punch, or unless you are talking about playing as opposed to sparring, then I am amazed. Your post seems to indicate neither of those things so again, I am very curious as to how you did it?

I have never made trapping work in any kind of real sparring (not playing) against a competent boxer. For you to apply Wing Chun based trapping against solid, competetive, amateur boxers is something I have never witnessed. I include people like Paul Vunak in those experiences. I have also sparred with some high level Wing Chun people who have tried to apply it against my Boxing, and got nowhere (and I am a very average Boxer).

If those are your experiences then you must be far more exceptional than I already thought you were, and fair play to you for achieving such a high level in the art.

[fire cobra]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

I would never doubt anything you say brother, but I do find that story absolutely staggering.

I trained in trapping for 15 years, with some of the best people in the world, before I started Boxing. Unless you are talking about a lucky check of the hand here and there against a stray punch, or unless you are talking about playing as opposed to sparring, then I am amazed. Your post seems to indicate neither of those things so again, I am very curious as to how you did it?

I have never made trapping work in any kind of real sparring (not playing) against a competent boxer. For you to apply Wing Chun based trapping against solid, competetive, amateur boxers is something I have never witnessed. I include people like Paul Vunak in those experiences. I have also sparred with some high level Wing Chun people who have tried to apply it against my Boxing, and got nowhere (and I am a very average Boxer).

If those are your experiences then you must be far more exceptional than I already thought you were, and fair play to you for achieving such a high level in the art.

Hi Michael,

Well I never intented to make myself look like the bees knees bro I promise!,I also promise Im not the bees knees,just someone that was(is) fanatical about what I did/do,fanatical in that I really did some mad things!.

If I can elaborate a bit on the Boxing gyms experience Michael,I really did take plenty of knocks in trying to trap hands,I especially got hit with hooks as I remember(it was in the late 1970s/early to mid eighties ish).

The types of traps I would get were simple not complex,ie(To use Wing Chun terminology)simple Pak sau to gum sau pin,similtanious pak and punch on the inside line,I would get hit more using a inside Pak than a outside pak,I also used a variation of bong lap quite succesfully as I remember,also I used a boxing stance to do these moves from,but also tried a Wing Chun structure(as I understood it back then) but felt it silly to do this when in a Boxing gym.

I cant really think of what else to say to you other than what I say is true,some of the Boxers are still around in my home town/area and one is a promminent Muay Thai teacher now.

If you would like me to share any more of my training experiences ive had over the last 30 years I will be only to glad but would rather do it over a pm because I feel like Im "showing off" which is the last thing I would want to do.

Good training bro.

[Max22]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

Trapping "working" against those specific structures still remains nothing more than a routine, because those structures are never tested in a functional or alive environment. People from arts that are based around classical routines, especially trapping, completely change the way they fight if they ever really face an aggressive, resisiting opponent in a live situation. Check out the supreme trapping prowess of Master's Cheung and Boztepe when they fought. Man, that was pure poetry

Michael,
I've done it against the structures I am talking about in live sparring against wing chun, and karate stylists who came to my JKD group to train. Ate them up with the trapping. Traditional stylists often throw technique in ways that offer trapping as an option. This wasn't in a drill. This was in sparring. They were resisting opponents, aggressive in a live situation. So I think that trapping has a limited place in JKD curriculae. There is no need to spend hours and hours on it, and do the complex, and silly, endless trapping series.

[Max22]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

I would never doubt anything you say brother, but I do find that story absolutely staggering.

I trained in trapping for 15 years, with some of the best people in the world, before I started Boxing. Unless you are talking about a lucky check of the hand here and there against a stray punch, or unless you are talking about playing as opposed to sparring, then I am amazed. Your post seems to indicate neither of those things so again, I am very curious as to how you did it?

I have never made trapping work in any kind of real sparring (not playing) against a competent boxer. For you to apply Wing Chun based trapping against solid, competetive, amateur boxers is something I have never witnessed. I include people like Paul Vunak in those experiences. I have also sparred with some high level Wing Chun people who have tried to apply it against my Boxing, and got nowhere (and I am a very average Boxer).

If those are your experiences then you must be far more exceptional than I already thought you were, and fair play to you for achieving such a high level in the art.

This again returns to my structures argument. Trapping doesn't work against boxing, at least not much that I've ever witnessed. But it does work against karate, and kung fu stylists for the simple reason that they tend to be less fluid in their attack and defense than boxers. Classical stylists tend to block heavy, and then counter, or retreat, throw attacks singly etc. All things for which trapping might concievably be employed against.

I suspect the reason that Cheung and Botzepe don't perform what they teach is because their training method simply doesn't help them at all. I don't know if they spar., or if they cross train. Their fight was pretty silly because neither of them know how to fight they just know a lot of techniques, and ancient de-contextualized training methods.

[Michael Wright]

Well there you go, it seems Trapping does work after all.

I'm sure its just me, I must be rubbish at it.

[Max22]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

Well there you go, it seems Trapping does work after all.

I'm sure its just me, I must be rubbish at it.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm not discounting your experience of it, and in fact agree with most of what you say. If you are working alot of boxing you are just best to not even bother trying to trap.

I think if you took all that training you did when your were working your trapping, and sparred classically trained Wing Chun guys, and japanese classical arts you might see how the whole trapping business arose. I think against modern boxing attack and defense it doesn't work well, or at all. Against unrefined, stuttery attacks it can, along with the attacks of classical styles.

I think it is over emphasized almost any place it is trained, and typically, the less sparring, the more elaborate the trap training.

If you don't find it helpful for you then by all means don't use it. Your identification of delusional training, is also spot on. However there is some room for disagreement here.

[Michael Wright]

It was just a bit of sarcasm, nothing serious intended.

I like your posts Max, you offer a well rounded point of view substantiated with personal experience. Disagreement is always a good thing, your experiences are your own and a credit to you.

I also don't doubt Fire Cobra's experiences, he is well known to me and highly respected by me, so if the man said he did it then he did it.

Its all good. Different points of view, different life experiences, a bit of healthy debate.

Good talking to you.

[Max22]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

It was just a bit of sarcasm, nothing serious intended.

I like your posts Max, you offer a well rounded point of view substantiated with personal experience. Disagreement is always a good thing, your experiences are your own and a credit to you.

I also don't doubt Fire Cobra's experiences, he is well known to me and highly respected by me, so if the man said he did it then he did it.

Its all good. Different points of view, different life experiences, a bit of healthy debate.

Good talking to you.

Thanks,
I've enjoyed it myself.
Good training to you!

[fire cobra]

Originally Posted by Max22

I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm not discounting your experience of it, and in fact agree with most of what you say. If you are working alot of boxing you are just best to not even bother trying to trap.

I think if you took all that training you did when your were working your trapping, and sparred classically trained Wing Chun guys, and japanese classical arts you might see how the whole trapping business arose. I think against modern boxing attack and defense it doesn't work well, or at all. Against unrefined, stuttery attacks it can, along with the attacks of classical styles.

I think it is over emphasized almost any place it is trained, and typically, the less sparring, the more elaborate the trap training.

If you don't find it helpful for you then by all means don't use it. Your identification of delusional training, is also spot on. However there is some room for disagreement here.

"I think against modern boxing attack and defense it doesn't work well, or at all.!

You think wrong Max22,maybe what you should think is that you cant or havent made it work against Boxers/Boxing.

[pstevens]

I could see where trapping might work in isolated incidents: i.e. close-quarter surprise attack, etc... But overall, I don't believe it's very useful to train given the amount of time needed to be good.

The problem being, trapping has to work somewhere in between a jab and a haymaker which doesn't happend a whole lot. Let me explain:

1. The jab. It's too quick and retracts, so attempting to trap leaves you wide open for bad things.

2. Haymaker. Can't do either, because the person is coming at you full-force. You might have a chance if you're able to "stop" them before reaching momentum, but the best case scenario is to get outta the way.

The seatbelt clinch in BJJ is sort of like trapping and I've used that to seize and hold someone before they could react. I could see trapping used in this manner, as a way of restricing movement before it begins (a surprise attack), then launching your own attack.

[fire cobra]

Originally Posted by pstevens

I could see where trapping might work in isolated incidents: i.e. close-quarter surprise attack, etc... But overall, I don't believe it's very useful to train given the amount of time needed to be good.

The problem being, trapping has to work somewhere in between a jab and a haymaker which doesn't happend a whole lot. Let me explain:

1. The jab. It's too quick and retracts, so attempting to trap leaves you wide open for bad things.

2. Haymaker. Can't do either, because the person is coming at you full-force. You might have a chance if you're able to "stop" them before reaching momentum, but the best case scenario is to get outta the way.

The seatbelt clinch in BJJ is sort of like trapping and I've used that to seize and hold someone before they could react. I could see trapping used in this manner, as a way of restricing movement before it begins (a surprise attack), then launching your own attack.

"as a way of restricing movement before it begins (a surprise attack), then launching your own attack."

Thats what I found brother.

It is possible to trap against a fast jab but you have to trap on the retraction after touch.

[Ghost]

firecobra, i have little experience in trapping, well some but not much but is what you found to work for you anything like the sort of long guard arm/hand manipulation in thai boxing if you get what i mean?

[Ben Grimm]

Against some schools of TMA, I've noticed my trapping is sufficient, but against boxers and wrestlers, I've had very little success.

[Mike N]

I think of trapping as a function of making a connection and stop/ deflect and counter. I think the trapping range is nearly identical to the range we call the clinch. I think alot of the clinch work is trapping. It may not be pak sau da, bong sau, tan sau type techniques. We are to tied up that trapping has to look a certain way. the 50/50 pummel is essentially you bong sau your over hooking arm and extending it into an under hook and your partner does the same. take the 50/50 pummel and extend the range and move your hand in front of your body an simulate that movement in narrower pattern. It would have a Chi sau look to it.
I think trapping is so much more than the techniques being defined as a pak sau, tan sau, ect. It is a principle of connecting, deflect, grasp and manipulate to your advantage. If you block by extending your jab to cause the deflecting arm away it is very similar to a bil sau.