Trapping...Does it work?

[Tim McFatridge]

Ok guys... I had to come on here and post something because if not then my reading through EVERY page on this topic would be a waste then... lol

It does amaze me at how some topics never go away as I remember talking about this years ago on here.

I agree with a lot of people on here including Tim Mousel and Michael Wright..and others. I just want to add that we also have to keep in mind that there is trapping in the grappling arts... wrestling and bjj are big on trapping as is my favorite Catch Wrestling. The only thing is that these grappling arts do not call it "trapping", instead they call it "pin".

You will pin your opponets arm or hand in order to set up you sub attempt. For example: You are in your standard top mount position and you are throwing down punches at your opponent and he puts up both hands and tries to block your strikes and protect his face. Now you see this and immediately go for an armbar... but before going for an armbar you have to secure his arm. How do you do this?

You take one of your hands and pin or "trap" his hand or arm to his body as you secure his arm. Then you post...spin and fall back for a standard arm bar. Even though in wrestling and other grappling arts we call it a pin it is still technically a trap.

I agree with the others... in a real life situation a complex trap is not going to work. You also need to remember if you are looking for a trap then it is not going to happen. I train trapping at my school like Tim because I enjoy it and think it is fun. However, I do most of my traps from the clinch or tie-up position because it is easier to pull off from here.

If I am sparring or fighting a guy who is throwing a jab at my face at 90mph (figure of speech) I am not going to try and pull off a pak da. I will simply parry the punch and move on... or parry and hit.

There is a place and time for trapping... my opinion... but not complex trapping... not in real fighting. Traps are easy to pull off on the ground but like I said... when on the ground or in the clinch we call them pins.

Ok... I just said all that to stir the pot a little more. Great post though guys and I appreciate everyone being civil about it and not taking anything too personal.

Cheers Mr. Wright and Tim i look forward to seeing you at Erik's seminar up here next month.

[Harima]

One thing that you have to remember is no matter what skill(s) you use. If you practice it enough someone can make it work. Even it's less effective skill.

People tend to misunderstand the term "trapping." You aren't always grappling in the classic sense, to be able to "trap". It's a way of tying people's limbs up not, specifically grabbing an arm, wrist, or any other joint for that matter.

The concept is best described as when you sweep someone's guard off to an intended side or area, as to render it (their limbs) useless. Even though you still have the freedom of your own limbs including the one you used to sweep the guard. It's not always that clean. But the idea is there.

I know I have used it!

Personally don't study Jeet Kune Do specifically, but I do understand what the man was getting at. Trapping is a way to gain a specific skill and concept. Not to always be used in every fight. Some fights you will find that some skills never get used. While others bring a whole new set of skills in with them.

Bruce Lee was trying to help people understand you gain skills (not techniques) from all areas of combat! Then you hone and refine the skills that work for you. That is why Bruce was so freaking good. He refined what he had learned, and discarded what didn't work for him personally. Through his journey that he took he ended up... finding... using trial and error, and searching more, and then tempered his skill, and style.

The funny thing is everyone that studies Martial arts HAVE to practice specific techniques, to gain skills and concepts. Once you gain the skill you can out grow the original technique.

[Harima]

Sorry this last blurb of mine was intended in a different Trapping thread. Sorry guys

[Harima]

One thing that you have to remember is no matter what skill(s) you use. If you practice it enough someone can make it work. Even it's less effective skill.

People tend to misunderstand the term "trapping." You aren't always grappling in the classic sense, to be able to "trap". It's a way of tying people's limbs up not, specifically grabbing an arm, wrist, or any other joint for that matter.

The concept is best described as when you sweep someone's guard off to an intended side or area, as to render it (their limbs) useless. Even though you still have the freedom of your own limbs including the one you used to sweep the guard. It's not always that clean. But the idea is there.

I know I have used it!

Personally don't study Jeet Kune Do specifically, but I do understand what the man was getting at. Trapping is a way to gain a specific skill and concept. Not to always be used in every fight. Some fights you will find that some skills never get used. While others bring a whole new set of skills in with them.

Bruce Lee was trying to help people understand you gain skills (not techniques) from all areas of combat! Then you hone and refine the skills that work for you. That is why Bruce was so freaking good. He refined what he had learned, and discarded what didn't work for him personally. Through his journey that he took he ended up... finding... using trial and error, and searching more, and then tempered his skill, and style.

The funny thing is everyone that studies Martial arts HAVE to practice specific techniques, to gain skills and concepts. Once you gain the skill you can out grow the original technique.

[Crafty Dog]

Woof All:

Here is something I wrote in 1998.

Crafty Dog/Marc
==========================================
Trapping

written by Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny

What follows is a reworking of something that was originally posted on the Eskrima Digest on the subject of trapping. It began with a good question, a slightly edited version of which follows:

", , , , In short, Burt Richardson (and some others I know) seem to doubt the usefulness of the Jun Fan/Wing Chun type trapping (or at least how they're trained -- and I think this might be more the issue).

, , , As you can identify, all those cool FMA things we learn like, sumbrada, punyo sumbrada, hubad, 1001 disarms, tend not to come out in high intensity confrontations like fights at the Gathering. This it not necessarily to say that such training is useless, but time in vs. results in fighting is less than that as compared to working power or evasion skills. In Burt's eyes, this sort of thing sort of applies to trapping, it doesn't happen often, at least not in the same way that the training is done, i.e. you punch, he blocks, this gives you a high outside reference point, you can pak sao, etc... Paraphrased by my understanding, Burt's big thing right now is to only train stuff that works w/high percentage of success and very similar to how it should be one (and thereby dropping the other stuff) ,and since few folks pull of the fleeting trapping range (since now that grappling is big, guys tend to crash right through to grappling).

I know you used to work a lot with Paul Vunak, who I still gather that his camp is still very strongly trapping range oriented. I understand Paul to be very much in the vein of "has to work/be verified" himself, so I figure he wouldn't keep stuff that he didn't feel to have actual combat value.

I figure you're in the somewhat unique case of being able to appreciate both sides well, so here's the question. What do you think is the value of trapping, both JF/WC and Kali for real fighting? "

END QUOTE

I saw Burt's tapes with "Matt Thorton's Straight Blast Gym" and I agree that this is a question that should be raised. We've heard the claims-- where the hell is it in the NHB fighting that we see?

JKD says "my technique is a result of your technique". Well, people fight differently now than they did when Bruce Lee was around. In those days I was a hippie and not into martial arts, but it is my understanding that, the karate tended to attract the "real fighters"-- guys who liked to spar, and the kung fu guys were not oriented that way. A stereotype, but on the whole, perhaps not without validity. Karate people block and in the right hands (and of course that is always the issue) JF/WC can do pretty well. But, for example, the low block of karate that sets up pin choy- guah choy simply is not a part of present day trained fighters' responses. And the speediness of the pendulum structure of Jun Fan that works well against a more rooted footwork game does not always work so well against the bio-mechanics of someone well versed in the Muay Thai kick stance-- the sideways alignment of the pendulum does not allow for as quick an initiation of the rear leg power kicks and the instant when the feet come together may leave one vulnerable to both legs being swept out with one kick. The high hand position of Muay Thai also presents problems for classical Jun Fan/WC type trapping. This is not to say that I personally can always make Muay Thai happen against Jun Fan, but that other things being equal (that's Latin for "ceterus parabus") it can be difficult for the Jun Fan Kickboxing structure to succeed in its mission of entering well into trapping range against Muay Thai. Against a BJJ/Vale Tudo grappler type the challenge can be even more discouraging.

I trained extensively with Paul Vunak from 1983-86, but I have not been in touch since then except for a conversation wherein he told me that he had been working a lot on leg locks to counter the BJJ guard (not a bad idea by the way)-- so I am not in any position to evaluate what he has been up to in the last 12 years. When I did train with him I liked very much the way he freely blended the FMA that he knew with the Jun Fan structure and to me it made sense to say as he did, and I paraphrase, that JKD was more than the "BL style" and was something that had to evolve. The FMA can be extremely JKD in their mindset. In the book "Masters of Arnis, Kali, and Eskrima" by Edgar Sulite (highly recommended by the way) one can clearly see this in the interviews with the various grandmasters. It made sense to me that the FMA could and should play an important role in the evolution of JKD. The technical structure of the FMA has a lot of "common thread" with Jun Fan-i.e. the two have structures which integrate well. The tendency to strong side forward common to both is but one example of many and the advanced trapping skills of both is another.

However, while Guro Inosanto toiled for decades on behalf of Bruce Lee legacy, a nucleus of JKD people most of whom had sat on their , , , laurels since Bruce Lee died would yap and yowl that JKD was what Bruce Lee did and nothing else. In my opinion Guro Inosanto chose the term "JKD Concepts" in an effort to avoid conflict with the Classical JKD crowd--instead of saying the plain truth that JKD by definition must evolve. Even this compromise on his part did not suffice and now some in this group seek to rewrite the history of JKD by dropping Guro Inosanto's name down some Orwellian "memory hole". But this a matter of words and, as such, of not much importance.

What is important? First, lets not overstate thintgs. We need to remember that in the current environment that a lot of this stuff continues to work. When I was in Brazil in June 1992 I showed Renzo Gracie Vunak's "Headbutt, Elbow, Knees" tape. I have the amateur ringside video of his next vale tudo fight in which he drills some guy he gets in the corner with this structure. It is also important to remember that MANY situations that one might be in are quite different from a NHB octagon. How many people would be want on concrete to close against a guy with good fast savate feet in cowboy boots? Yeah, it can be done, but some of you are going to get seriously zipped in the bladder. A straight blast might get you through a barroom ruckus to the door better than a single leg takedown/side control/arm bar. Many bouncers and others with lots of experience swear by trapping. So in my opinion we should not get carried away with the "Where-is-the-trapping?" stuff.

Still, there is a legitimate question in all this. Little of what we see today is the way it is taught in many Jun Fan or Wing Chun classes and Burt is right that it is important to honestly look at this. So let me see if I can answer your question by way of example: In engineering, different types of strength are distinguished: compressive, tensile, shear, fatigue, etc. Engineering people please forgive my technical sloppiness, but compressive strength is the ability to bear weight. For example, you can put a lot of weight on concrete and it won't crumble. Tensile strength is the ability to withstand a pull. Think of the metal cables of a suspension bridge. Why aren't they made of concrete? Because concrete has lousy tensile strength and would snap.

Against the fighting structures used in the 60s and early 70s JF/WC trapping structures worked. As Muay Thai came in this was less so. And as BJJ came in even less so. It is as if the BJJ question tested the tensile strength of concrete. Concrete is strong, but not in that way. The challenge, as I see it, is the equivalent of learning to put "rebar" (those metal rods that are laid out and tied together in a gridlike pattern) in concrete; something is need to provide tensile strength.

Burt, Vunak and I are all students of Guro Inosanto, yet it should surprise no one that each of our approaches differ. Speaking only for myself, I feel that trapping continues to have a lot of validity, its just that what is required to bring it into play, the "rebar' if you will, has changed. Change is always the case. Personally, much more of my trapping comes from Filipino Arts than JF; I find it easier to function by attacking the limb. I find the use of the elbows and forearms and the ways of using the hand of the FMA more suited to me.

Moving on to the next point, I do disagree with your assertion that "As you can identify, all those cool FMA things we learn like, sumbrada, punyo sumbrada, hubad, 1001 disarms, tend not to come out in high intensity confrontations like fights at the Gathering." Why? Because these are TRAINING METHODS, not techniques, and the proof of their validity is in the functional results of the people who train with them.

If you look at the four "first tier" fighters of the Dog Brothers for example you will see that all have serious high level training. Top Dog moves pretty damn well in my opinion-and it doesn't matter if its doing a carenza or during a fight. After starting with Tom Bisio, he was a student of Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje of the Pekiti Tirsia system. Salty Dog has, in addition to his FMA training here in the US (certified in the Derobio system for example) has trained extensively in Thailand in Krabi Krabong at the Buddaiswan Institute and is certifed by them. Sled Dog also was trained by GT Gaje and is a Mataas Na Guro in Pekiti Tirsia, as well as a high ranking instructor in Kajukenbo and other arts as well. In my case, I am a student of and certified by Guro Dan Inosanto, and the late Punong Guro Edgar Sulite as well. I recently also became a student of GT Gaje.

When watching a fight at a Gathering people should realize when they see a strike coming smoothly out of a roof block that it may be seeing the result of sombrada training? There is no doubt in my mind that my first staff fight went as it did (Not to overstate it--there is much to work on!) in important part because of my time working staff sombrada in Guro Inosanto's class. Personally, at the moment I tend not to get as much out of "punyo sombrada" (a.k.a. "thrust on tapping") but maybe someone else does, or maybe some day that will change for me. Ditto disarms. I feel I get a lot out of hubud, but then I go about it differently than most people lacking fighting experience. It will vary from fighter to fighter which training methods work best, so a good teacher will not be limited to his personal preferences, instead he will have different offerings for his students.

But most of all, we need to remember that THESE TRAINING METHODS WERE DEVELOPED BY WARRIORS IN THE PHILIPPINES TO TRAIN WELL AND SAFELY. HERE IN THE UNITED STATES WE TRY TO USE THEM TO DEVELOP WARRIORS, WHICH IS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT TASK, AND BLAME THE METHODS INSTEAD OF OURSELVES WHEN WE STILL CAN'T FIGHT. This is just my opinion.

Speaking frankly, I am aware that in some circles Guro Inosanto takes a rap for teaching "show and not go". However in my opinion this misses the important point that Guro I. makes about there being short, middle and long term training. For immediate result, you train one way, for result over the middle term you train anther way, and for the long term you train yet other ways.

Most of you may know that the FMA of Dog Brothers Martial Arts is based around Inosanto Blend, Pekiti Tirsia, and Lameco. Yet when I fight in stickgrappling, I use principally Inosanto Blend (with some Bando Python) blended with Machado BJJ. It is my belief that the only reason that I can continue to fight effectively at 46 is because of the mid and long term training, called "show" by so many, that Guro I. makes his students do. I would have been too much of an opinionated idiot to have realized this on my own. To be a good stickgrappler requires both a good Kali and good grappling (BJJ in my case) base before coming to the stickgrappling. In other words, years of preparation. All those "show" combinations of Guro I. I now see differently-- they are not literal, they are kinesthetic/neurological maps to what is available where. Because of this training while fighting I see possibilities that I probably would not otherwise and my game can become more spontaneous-- whatever arises I am more likely to have a solution. BUT, if I never worked on my fighting understanding, then this portion of my training would not serve me in a fighting context. This is a vital point.

Also a vital point is that certainly one does not get to this point if one can't hit hard while moving one's feet, etc. This was one of the main points of the first Dog Brothers video series. There is no avoiding building the foundation, but if those of you who put up the walls before thinking about putting in the wiring, when the sun of youth goes down you may find yourself in the dark. Conversely, those of you who put in the wiring without building the walls and roof will get wet from a rain of blows.

One of the things that most profoundly drew me to the FMA, was their consistent ability to produce men of awareness who were functional well into later in life. I know of no other martial art tradition with as much success in this regard. I see a life in martial arts as having three stages. I still struggle with good names for them. At the moment I call them the young male, the father/teacher, and , , , well, I don't have a name for the third one but it is the goal, so lets call it , , ,the Goal! For me they are represented by Bruce Lee, Dan Inosanto, and John LaCoste.

Woof,
Guro Crafty

[Joe Hubbard]

Wise words from Mark! I really have to agree that “trapping” as in the training methodology is time well spent. The problem lies in the lack of defining what the application is when you are forced to find opportunity out of chaos. In the heat of battle, when things get confused – the 19th century philosopher Karl von Clausewitz referred to this as “la friction” or “the fog of war” – your mechanics have to be tight at close quarters. A good analogy is differentiating between a free throw and shooting on the move in basketball. The free throw is where everything should look great and smooth, but shooting on the move can be chaotic. But to find that opportunity out of chaos, the basketball player will need to do his share of free throw practice to concentrate on the self-perfection side. And when we talk about close quarters, we are really talking about trapping range. At this range there is a limited window of combat in which to operate and that is where all your trapping drills and methodology comes into play for me. One of the things Vunak really emphasised is that all fights are won in trapping range. Many are confused about this because when you anchor the neck, most students and indoctrinated into the “Sports Clinch” and just start grappling, or worse give the opponent the opportunity to anchor to his neck as well. The close quarter onslaught is all about getting the neck and finishing him with elbows, forearms, knees, eye attacks, face rakes, etc. To operate at that close quarter range efficiently your mechanics have to be superior to your opponent’s. The other misconception is that trapping only is used to remove an obstruction such as a pak sao. The way a lot of people train this kind of thing is focusing on slapping the arm rather than the follow up finish which is where you want to be in the first place.

[Crafty Dog]

"to find that opportunity out of chaos"

Some of my best sparring success has come where I used the skills developed in my double stick fighting to frame the interaction into my definitions of engagement i.e. there is very little chaos because I have him framed and funneled so that per JKD's choice reaction principle (fewer choices= faster reaction) I can just fire my covertly prepared motion and have at him.

Per DBMA theory, I think in terms of what we call "the Triangle from the Third Dimension", "the 7 Ranges Theory" and "the Theory of Chambers".

Having cultivated and tested my skills in the adrenal state of "DB Real Contact Stickfighting" and learned to close that larger distance in technical fashion, I use the integration of triangular footwork and weaponry striking motions that I used in that context in the context of the shorter -hence easier-- distance of empty hand.

When I use the forehanded thrusting strikes only idiom of movement (a.k.a. "boxing") with the boxing/kickboxing type of footwork I find success rather difficult.

Tangent: The BL Jun Fan JKD stance is a very sideways stance and worked well against the common stances of that time (e.g. the karate stances) but Guro Inosanto (he of well-above average footwork) relates that he had trouble working it against Ajarn Chai Sirisuite's MT stances.

What works much better for me in the current context is to use the empty handed version of footwork and weaponry motions which I have learned and already tested in the adrenal state. Once in, the WC/Jun Fan motions certainly come into play, but generally I prefer the Kali way, especially for creating/defining my moment and point of contact. If I can do that, then it is as Joe describes.

TAC!
CD

[John McNabney]

Trapping works for me because I'm hitting on every move, (hitting) before, after and during if needed be...


Keep "IT" Real,
JM

[Harima]

I wasn't say trapping doesn't work. I was trying to state in a different thread that trapping does work, and that people don't give it enough credit.

What I have found in my years of study, is that some people will do what they train for, and other will not do what they spent so many years training in. - They don't trust their skills or don't trust the skills presented.

I like trapping, I do use it when the moment arises. I just like to make sure that I don't define my "style" with trapping as the only structure I use. I feel that a lot of people out there do rest on Bruce's efforts alone. They don't try for self-discovery to find what works for them. Which is a shame due to (that is what in my opinion) Bruce was trying to teach self-discovery for what can work for each individual.

It also helps that my current instructed that I learn from was part of the Original Ed Parker crew that also studied with Bruce Lee and even traded information and understand of how skills are progressed.

[Crafty Dog]

"They don't trust their skills or don't trust the skills presented."

Indeed. Skills untested in the adrenal state, tend not to appear when the adrenal state is created-- and many JKD people do not explore the adrenal state. THIS is the weak link for many IMHO.

[Flaves]

you can apply a lot of the trapping concepts to your ground game as well.

[Crafty Dog]

Forgive me please a moment of shameless marketing, but that is exactly on of the key points of our newest DVD: "Kali Tudo (tm) The Running Dog Game vs. the Guard" See Dog Brothers Inc. Martial Arts for the promo clip.

[thtackett]

Mark,
How's it going? Long time no see. Our group works on making trapping work in the real world. We even have a dvd on it. I too can do a shameless plug.
It's called " Jeet Kune Do: Trapping Hands For combat" We did it for Unique Publications (Inside Kung Fu Magazine).
You're right my teacher, Dan Inosanto, does not get the credit he deserves. 80% of what is in the dvd I got from him. 20% is what I learned from Bob Bremer.
Tim Tackett

[Michael Wright]

Our group works on making trapping work in the real world.

How's that been working out for you?

[thtackett]

Real well.