Joe Lewis describes street fighters as low skilled in Black Belt Magazine

[Kvntu]

I have a lot of respect for the ring skills of Joe Lewis. He certainly moved Kickboxing to a higher level. However, his comments concerning street fighting in the July 2009 issue of Black Belt magazine really reveals his lack of understanding concerning this complex subject. He does write that he has never seen a street fight stating“I’ve witnessed many fights, but to date not one has taken place on the street.” While I am sure he means he has only seen brawls in side a building and not on the street, this still weakens his point concerning a subject he has not witnessed. While I am happy for him to have been spared seeing such violence, which might be due to him residing in a small town like Wilimington, NC, but those of use that have lived or live in large cities have not been so fortunate. Many of us have that dwell in the big city ( I grew up in D.C.) have witnessed or have been subject to the physical confrontations of road rage or have been followed out to a parking lot or gang violence.

A successful street fighter has to have a different set of skills and mental attitude than that of a ring fighter. This in no way detracts from the skills of a high level sports fighter and I have the utmost respect. However, in the street you don’t have a referee to break you up if you break a rule and of course there are no rules. You have to worry about weapons, which could even be just a bottle or a rock. I have known of one instance where a guy bit the nose off the guy taking him to the ground. Believe me that can change the game plan. This is “usually” not a concern in the ring, lol. I have been in both situations and I am sorry but they are not the same and I can go on and on with similar stories.

Also, his claim that you most likely will only encounter or those claiming to have street fighting skills have fought are “some drunks, a few kids and a couple of bums” also reveals his lack of knowledge of what really can happen on the streets of major urban areas. In this day and age you never know the level of skill you are going to have to deal with. I hope anyone reading this understands the difference between fighting a skilled opponent in the ring as opposed to dealing with a 280 lbs guy cranked up on pcp with some reasonable boxing and wrestling skills you just cut off in traffic and he is pulling you out of your car in a psychotic rage.

Having said all of that, I do understand where Lewis is coming from. I am sure he is sick of people claiming high level sport fighters don’t know how to protect themselves in the real world and that somehow street fighters are better fighters. It takes years to be able to compete at a world class level and that certainly deserves respect. I also would say that the last thing I want is to be on the receiving end of a full power right hook from someone like that, lol! I just feel that he went a bit too far in his defense of his art by down playing the skills needed to survive the streets. The fighter that has the skills to deal with all the possibilities you might encounter on the street deserves the same respect as the fighter that has the skills to compete in the ring. It really does no one any good to try and diminish either one.

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by Kvntu

The fighter that has the skills to deal with all the possibilities you might encounter on the street deserves the same respect as the fighter that has the skills to compete in the ring. It really does no one any good to try and diminish either one.

I see what you're saying, but Mr. Lewis is probably eluding to the fact that you can measure (as a way of comparison) the skill of someone who fights against other skilled opponents in the ring; whereas, it's hard to discern the actual skill of someone who trains "street fighting" techniques in a gym all day. Maybe the "street fighter" has taken out a few drunkards, but does it really say much about his skill?

Yes, there are very skilled martial artists who don't fight in the ring and I respect what they do. But there are too many "dojo tough guys" talking like they're ryu and ken from Street Fighter. I think Mr. Lewis was responding to those kinds of people.

Ultimately, it's just a matter of opinion.

[jonbey]

Maybe street fighting has changed. Not so many years ago, scraps in the street would be with fists etc. and street fighters learnt many little tricks, like pressure points, breaks etc. But now everyone seems to be carrying a knife, and those that are not fear that others are. But with more knives on the street, good old fashioned street fighting is dead. Hard to train if your opponent has a knife, or worse. How can our urchins on the street learn?

[Kvntu]

It probably gets down to what we mean by the term "street fighting". My personal interpretation is very broad. Perhaps so broad that others would not agree. I consider any skill that helps you survive a violent or potentially violent confrontation on the street is street fighting or perhaps a better term would be street survival. This can range from weapons and unarmed concepts, all the way to just good awareness and verbal skills that can deescalate a bad situation.

[fenwick99]

I think the point is that a guy past his prime in ring fighting, like Royce Gracie, could easily destroy 99.99% of dojo dwellers and self-appointed tough guys, and do it with ease. a trained professional fighter will always be above someone who is not. but conversely, any 9 year old could pull a trigger, like that boy in AZ who killed his father
over 10,000 spankings.

[blackdan]

I live in sydney and we have a serious problem with middle eastern crime...specifically lebanese and this runs the gamut from wealthy organused crime figures to common street thugs.
Their weapon of choice is pretty much anything other than fists so a realistic approach to self defence is required if you are training for a confrontation.
Streetfighting is such a broad generic term now that its actually rather archaic.
We fight for our lives in this day and age.
Therefore in my view, the major difference between the sporting arena and the world outside is that one style is governed by rules and ethics and one side is not.
Its not about being the toughest....its about who hits first and hardest and how far you are prepared to go to survive.
Joe should restrict his comments to areas he has knowledge in.

[Tant01]

With all due respect... My daughter is ten and I took her shooting a week or so ago. Just wanted to introduce her to my rimfire pistol and another scoped hunting type bolt action rifle. She liked the pistol and probably fired 80 rounds.
Here in AMERICA we still have the right to bear arms and the worse "STREET" fights involve weapons. Go punch and kick your bag.

If you think it helps...

I'm gonna keep on shooting and make sure my loved ones are capable of hitting what they shoot at...

Just hope they never shoot at me...

[blackdan]

"with all due respect"...is always followed by something disrespectfull I have found.
mate...in sydney we are in the middle of a war between rival bike groups....a hells angels brother was set upon by a group of rival bikers and beaten to death in the lounge of sydney airport.
Two major crime figures have been shot in the last week...one fatally and the other nearly.
We have had police stations hit in drive by shootings and it goes on and on.
I certainly agree that fire needs to be fought with fire but what do you do in a bar when a guy grabs your girls butt and its going to be man on man and no firearms are involved?
Maybe I will be glad that I punched and kicked the bag.
By the way...I am a former Australian Infantry soldier so Im very familiar with firearms.
Do what you have to do to protect yourself and your family.
I have no problem with the population being armed....at least when some nutcase goes beserk with a gun you have a chance to fight back.

[Kvntu]

If someone believes the ultimate solution to all street confrontations is the use of fire arms, they are making a dangerous assumption in my humble opinion. There is the legal issue of using “like force”, that is using force appropriate to the situation. In the USA we do have the right to carry firearms but that doesn’t mean it’s the Wild West. I hope no one reading this forum feels its ok to blow away some guy running up to punch you in the face with his fist! The majority of street fights that have happened in my area have involved no weapons at all and police reports support that. If you are curious about your area, see if your local law enforcement agency makes crime reports available on the net.

Its important to understand weapons, but its just as important to understand self preservation that doesn’t involve your personal access to firearms, because there is always a chance you don’t have access to your weapon or it jams, etc... I love the story Peyton Quinn tells about conducting a self defense class and hears someone watching telling their friend “You know what I would do if I was in that situation?” and then the guy takes his fingers and points it like a gun at his friends head and says “bang!” Peyton called him out asking “so where is your real gun?” The guys face turned red because he suddenly realized it was home. My belief is street survival skills consists of a strong sense of awareness, verbal skills to defuse a bad situation, understanding the use of weapons and empty hand combat.

[Michael Wright]

Your training should work the percentages that apply to the reality of your life.

Spend the vast majority of your time focussing on the things that will benefit you ever day and for the rest of your life - health, fitness, confidence, fun, and friendship. That's what I get from my training, and thats why I will be kicking and punching the bag.

Spend a very small and very focussed amount on time arming yourself with whatever you need to in order to address your fears of a violent confrontation. Typically though, people's fears are not answered by martial arts, if anything it feeds the paranoia. I've always said if it really bothers you that much then go out and face your fears - be a cop, work the doors, join the army. Life experience tends to be the best answer.

[Garland]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

Your training should work the percentages that apply to the reality of your life.

Spend the vast majority of your time focussing on the things that will benefit you ever day and for the rest of your life - health, fitness, confidence, fun, and friendship. That's what I get from my training, and thats why I will be kicking and punching the bag.

Typically though, people's fears are not answered by martial arts, if anything it feeds the paranoia. I've always said if it really bothers you that much then go out and face your fears - be a cop, work the doors, join the army. Life experience tends to be the best answer.

Ding! This is perhaps the most honest and straightforward post I've seen in a long time.

I do disagree with the arming thing, however, as impact weapons stuff can bring people together (look at the DBMA, it's essentially a fraternity of fighters, a straight up tribe that grows together), learning knife stuff is the same way- the Sayoc's sama samas are evidence of that, and most certainly shooting and firearm related activities can be fun for the whole family when you go hunting. Weapons are just tools, it's the mentality with which you use them that will make or break a decent perspective of the world. (i.e. you use a knife damn near every day to cut food, open packages, and so forth, learning how to use it for all it's utility is smart, and training knife work can be rewarding, but obsessing on killing is bad. Thinking about training progressions is fine, but dwelling on stabbing and slashing another human being is bad, although some (minute) amount of time must be spent preparing onesself for the realities of that possible (if not highly implausible) eventuality.

I get what you're getting at, though. I know several people involved in the martial arts or who collect firearms that go off the deep end with the survivialist mindset, or who seem to attract physical confrontation because of their fear of it. If you're a woman who has been assualted in the past and now train to hurt a potential rapist and train it zealously, there is a certain point where it is potentially retraumitizing and unknown men will immediatly be seen as not just as potential attackers, but as likely attackers...and as a result, they end up hospitalizing people. They never gain confidence, no matter how good they get, they just get more terrified because their world view is that of a mugger at every corner and a kidnapping at every curb.

Martial arts shouldn't be this way, though, and good instructors and good martial artists should be able to notice this happening in themselves, their peers, and their students, and do their best to hedge it off.

In short...I agree with you, and I ramble a bunch.

[Garland]

I agree with Joe Lewis. Most "streetfights" are drunks, bums, sports fans, road rage, and kids being stupid, all of which can be avoided WAY before it happens (with the exception of the guy who you cut off pulling up next to you and pointing a gun into your car, which actually happened to my brother and my mom last summer). Everything else is a would-be-victim targeted for some other type of crime that puts up a fight. Semantics.

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Garland

Ding! This is perhaps the most honest and straightforward post I've seen in a long time.

I do disagree with the arming thing, however, as impact weapons stuff can bring people together (look at the DBMA, it's essentially a fraternity of fighters, a straight up tribe that grows together), learning knife stuff is the same way- the Sayoc's sama samas are evidence of that, and most certainly shooting and firearm related activities can be fun for the whole family when you go hunting. Weapons are just tools, it's the mentality with which you use them that will make or break a decent perspective of the world. (i.e. you use a knife damn near every day to cut food, open packages, and so forth, learning how to use it for all it's utility is smart, and training knife work can be rewarding, but obsessing on killing is bad. Thinking about training progressions is fine, but dwelling on stabbing and slashing another human being is bad, although some (minute) amount of time must be spent preparing onesself for the realities of that possible (if not highly implausible) eventuality.

I get what you're getting at, though. I know several people involved in the martial arts or who collect firearms that go off the deep end with the survivialist mindset, or who seem to attract physical confrontation because of their fear of it. If you're a woman who has been assualted in the past and now train to hurt a potential rapist and train it zealously, there is a certain point where it is potentially retraumitizing and unknown men will immediatly be seen as not just as potential attackers, but as likely attackers...and as a result, they end up hospitalizing people. They never gain confidence, no matter how good they get, they just get more terrified because their world view is that of a mugger at every corner and a kidnapping at every curb.

Martial arts shouldn't be this way, though, and good instructors and good martial artists should be able to notice this happening in themselves, their peers, and their students, and do their best to hedge it off.

In short...I agree with you, and I ramble a bunch.

Thanks Garland, and your post wasn't a ramble either, its full of concise thoughts.

I just want to clarify a few points though. It wasnt me that made the comments about firearms or weapons, I believe that was Kvntu, but for the record I thought his post was very good. I do however want to be clear and offer some context around a sentence in my post that you removed in your quote....

I am not saying for one moment that self preservation is not important to me. I learned how to use a firearm, and I have been training with edged and blunt weapons for nearly 20 years. I have specificlly sought out practical street based training from some of the best in the world including many years with Paul Vunak. I have trained with the military, the police and I served my brief tenure as a bouncer (not for me I'm afraid). So I just want to make clear that I do beleive self protection and self preservation to be very important.

I guess the point of my post was to say that it needs to be a rationale and balanced approach that reflects your life and your lifestyle. If I lived in a war torn country and my family's survival depended on my self preservation skills then you can bet I would devote every waking hour to it. But I don't, I live in a sleepy village in Hertfordshire and I work in Marketing, so its all about working the percentages that apply to the reality of your life. I'm 34 next month and I want to stay in the best shape I can, be fit and healthy, and thats why 90% of my time goes into Combat Athletics. I also surround myself with positive, competent, experienced martial artists who long ago gave up worrying about streetfighting because they have been there and bought the t-shirt. Training with them increases my ability, my confidence, its great fun and they are great friends. That is what is important to me.

However, make no mistake, I still keep that core of self preservation sharp. Its a small but very intense part of what I do, and once its done I forget about it and just enjoy my training. If the worst was to happen tomorrow I'm comfortable that I am equipped to do the very best that I can, the rest is just shit happens. I'm certainly not going to spend any time worrying about it, and I guess all in all that was my point.

Its always good to trade thoughts with you.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by blackdan

"with all due respect"...is always followed by something disrespectfull I have found.
mate...in sydney we are in the middle of a war between rival bike groups....a hells angels brother was set upon by a group of rival bikers and beaten to death in the lounge of sydney airport.
......

.....

Hardly the case here, I assure you.

My little neck of the Redwoods is no less violent than other places around the globe. Funny you should mention the HA...

A recent attempted murder here in town involved an old biker from that club. (gang)

Small world, eh?

[Justthefacts]

What struck me about Joe Lewis' comments was that it confirmed the lack of street fighting experience of the Big Three of the Blood & Guts Era of point fighting. Lewis, Mike Stone, and Chuck Norris have all made comments about how Bruce Lee never "proved" himself as a fighter. Their lone criteria involves Bruce not competing in point tournaments in the 1960's. Well, color me a skeptic, but I believe that Bruce Lee's abundant street fighting resume is far more impressive than anyone's point fighting resume.

As a teenager in Hong Kong, Bruce Lee had a reputation as a feared steet fighter. Yip Man's son called Bruce, "fighting crazy," and his itch to street fight continued during his years in Seattle. From 1959-1964, Bruce Lee engaged in 7 street fights, all were witnessed by reputable martial artists. This included the likes of Skip Ellsworth, Jesse Glover, Ed Hart, and James Lee. In essence, Bruce Lee was a great street fighter and Lewis/Stone/Norris were great tournament fighters. As Sifu James DeMile once said, "I would be happy to explain the differences to those people who think that winning trophies and smashing heads is the same thing."