JKD credentials

[Justthefacts]

"I know this is a JKD forum but its unfair to claim that Bruce was "50" years ahead of the game."

Unfair? Maybe, but Dan Inosanto has stated that his Sifu was "100 years ahead of his time." You have to remember that when Bruce Lee returned to the states in 1959, the United States wasn't exactly the hub of the martial arts world. The most well known martial art was Judo and Karate was just beginning to make its way into the United States. Point tournaments would not take place until 1963, and kickboxing/full contact karate did not begin until 1970. Each martial arts group kept to themselves, nobody cross-trained, and Sifu's would rather preach the mystical powers of their martial art rather than prove themselves in the street. Over the course of the next 14 years, Bruce Lee would turn this culture on its head. In terms of being ahead of your time, that alone should spot you 25 years. My 50 year figure factors in his influence in action movies and his stature as an INTERNATIONAL icon.

"Just 20 years after Bruce died the UFC helped establish a new paradigm for martial artists."

That paradigm was limited to the United States.

"Interestingly that same year JKD received its biggest shot in the arm since Lee's death. "The Dragon" attracted new interest in BL and JKD. That same year, 1993 the "original" JKD camps began to flourish and magazines doubled their interest in JKD by promoting both the JKDC and the OJKD."

Agreed.

"MMA has now surpassed the interest once given to BL and JKD."

That depends on the martial arts demographic. There is a reason why the History Channel produced a documentary that focused on Bruce Lee's influence on the martial arts and popular culture.

"Would Bruce have known how to deal with a MMA athlete?"

Since there are rules in UFC contests, I don't think that a prime Bruce Lee would have engaged in those bouts. In a street fight or a sparring match, I think that Bruce Lee would have done pretty well. In addition, I think that many of Bruce Lee's students would have given any MMA fighter all they could handle. I would be hard pressed to bet against a prime Bob Bremer, Al Novak, and/or Jesse Glover in a no-holds barred fight.

[Aikia]

Since there are rules in UFC contests, I don't think that a prime Bruce Lee would have engaged in those bouts. In a street fight or a sparring match, I think that Bruce Lee would have done pretty well. In addition, I think that many of Bruce Lee's students would have given any MMA fighter all they could handle. I would be hard pressed to bet against a prime Bob Bremer, Al Novak, and/or Jesse Glover in a no-holds barred fight.
Justthefacts

____________

The problem with your prediction is of course the fact that Glover/Novak/Bremer and Lee) did not have the 'technology' in 1968 to compete with a modern MMA fighter. They lacked the skills that have been competitive in MMA.
The streetfighter fights to "end" the fight while the ring fighter fights to "win" the fight.
Notice the subtle difference.
The 'credentials' to be an MMA champion are different from the "street cred" you speak of.
What we have learned is that the martial arts world is best broken down into specialists. One group specializes in ring sports while the other group may specialize in street. If you match a 'street fighter against a 'ring fighter' you assume that there will be some rules. They will meet at a certain place and time...and other conditions. Since the ring fighter is trained and disciplined to fight within the rules it follows that he would have the odds in his favor. The street fighter is at his best when there are no rules and the opponent is not trained to fight back with a higher level of skill.

[Justthefacts]

I'll use a Boxing comparison to counter your "technology" argument. In 2009, Boxing's training methods have evolved since the 1960's, yet who is STILL considered to be the greatest heavyweight champion of all time? Muhammad Ali's prime was from 1964-1967, but due to his speed, size, ability to take a punch, and level of competition, there is not a heavyweight boxer fighting today who could handle him. In terms of pound for pound, Sugar Ray Robinson is STILL considered to be the greatest fighter of all time and his prime was from 1945-1948. Skill level is the key to judging any great fighter. I noticed you tried to morph skill level with training methods, but they are separate issues when discussing great fighters. If you want to take the position that the present is better than anything from the past, you're entitled to that opinion. In my opinion, like most things in life, the truth is somewhere in-between. There are MMA fighters who would kick the crap out of martial artists from the 1940's and/or 1960's and there are martial artists from those time periods that would clean up on todays MMA fighters.

[Aikia]

I'll use a Boxing comparison to counter your "technology" argument. In 2009, Boxing's training methods have evolved since the 1960's, yet who is STILL considered to be the greatest heavyweight champion of all time? Muhammad Ali's prime was from 1964-1967, but due to his speed, size, ability to take a punch, and level of competition, there is not a heavyweight boxer fighting today who could handle him. In terms of pound for pound, Sugar Ray Robinson is STILL considered to be the greatest fighter of all time and his prime was from 1945-1948. Skill level is the key to judging any great fighter. I noticed you tried to morph skill level with training methods, but they are separate issues when discussing great fighters. If you want to take the position that the present is better than anything from the past, you're entitled to that opinion. In my opinion, like most things in life, the truth is somewhere in-between. There are MMA fighters who would kick the crap out of martial artists from the 1940's and/or 1960's and there are martial artists from those time periods that would clean up on todays MMA fighters.

Easy argument to counter. However, MMA is by definition a "mix" of different arts. For a while grappling was the best strategy, then striking became popular again.
Boxing has maintained the same singular strategy; hit the other person with your hands and move out of the way with your feet. Of course guys like Mike Tyson did "mix" biting with their boxing. You can compare a boxer from the 60's with a boxer from the '90's. The game remained the same.
Now think out of the 'boxer's' box. Could a Bruce Lee or a Chuck Norris compete in 2009 boxing? Of course not. Nor could a '60's boxer compete in modern MMA.

Since MMA is a new game it follows that a striker from the 60's is not going to be competitive with a MMA fighter from the next century. It's a different animal. It's apples and, err, uh, banna splits. There are no martial artists from the '60's that could compete in MMA ( at the championship level)without months training, nutrition, cardio enhancements not required in the '60's training regimine.

[Wi Kali Group]

Why did Bruce Lee ask Dan Inosanto to disband the JKD School? In his interview with Daniel Lee, Bruce was quoted as saying “That’s why I’ve disbanded all the schools of Jeet Kune Do; because it is very easy for a member to come in and take the agenda as “the truth” and the schedule as “the Way,” you know what I mean?” So it would seem Bruce was unhappy with the students in his school and their lack of understanding of JKD. Now some of these very students and their students are claiming to teach the truth and reality of Bruce Lee and offer to protect us from the misguided Dan Inosanto? Even though Sifu Dan was the only one Bruce trusted and certified to teach JKD? Thanks Teri Tom, but no thanks!

Dan talked about this in an interview. (This is my opinion of what I've heard Dan say in an interview.) Dan promised Bruce he would not teach JKD to the masses. Bruce wanted more concern on quality not quantity. So Dan said he told his students to teach JKD/Jun Fan and he would teach Kali. This way Dan could keep his promise to Bruce. What pushed Dan over the edge was people teaching Karate and calling it JKD. He felt it was more important if people were going to pay for JKD then they should really get JKD.

But Dan in no way wants to discourage people from learning what other students of Bruce have to offer. Just don't get sucked into the limit of only training what Bruce showed someone in the 60's and thinking its the way.

The best example is Bruce took some students on a trail. And they can take you on the same trail bruce took them on. Its a great trail. But Dan was taught to read the whole map. And Dan would like you to learn to read the map. Then you can check out all the trails.

[Kvntu]

In 1970, Bruce Lee asks Dan Inosanto to close down the Chinatown school and one of the reasons given by Bruce, was that "Danny has been restless." Bruce Lee thought that Dan Inosanto was going to take his art in a different direction. At the same time, Bruce was attempting to cajole tournament fighter Steve Sanders into opening a JKD school in Los Angeles. While a terrific martial artist, Sanders had no prior experience teaching JKD, yet Bruce was attempting to groom him as Dan Inosanto's replacement. Sanders turned down Bruce Lee's offer, but Bruce did give him a cameo in Enter the Dragon.

In addition, Bruce was not being completely honest with Dan Lee because he never told James Lee or Taky Kimura to close down their schools.

Justthefacts, may I ask you the sources for your information? There is so much written out there and a certain amount seems to contradict. So much so that I read anything about Bruce with a critical eye. I find it hard to believe that Bruce was going to replace Dan Inosanto with Steve Sanders. Bruce and Dan were close friends and the way you describe it, it sounds like Bruce was going to stab Dan in the back. I know Bruce had his faults, but it does seem that he had a sense of loyalty to his friends. Any way, I always enjoy your posts.

[Justthefacts]

Kvntu: I apologize for making an assumption regarding Bruce Lee's motives for closing down his Chinatown school. My bad. Steve Sanders told author Davis Miller that Bruce approached him in 1970, with an offer to be the head instructor at a proposed JKD school in Los Angeles. Miller is a dirtbag, but Sanders has an excellent reputation in the martial arts community, so I feel comfortable taking him at his word. Considering that Bruce Lee told Dan Inosanto that he wanted the Chinatown school curriculum to be pared down, it's not surprising that Sifu Inosanto became "restless." It seems that Bruce Lee was teaching all the good stuff to Bob Bremer during private training sessions.

[Justthefacts]

Kvntu: I have other source materials regarding Bruce Lee's offer to Steve Sanders, but the following excerpt from an interview with Davis Miller is the only one I have at my fingertips. Enjoy.

And he was so taken with Steve Sanders, another California-based karate practitioner, that he offered Sanders the role of head instructor of Lee's martial art, a role Sanders told Lee he did not want. It's worth mentioning that among the reasons that Dan Inosanto unofficially became "heir" to Lee's martial art is that no one Lee actually offered the role to was interested. I think it's helpful to also mention that Bruce Lee was quite a salesperson. And what did Lee sell? Himself and his martial art. He worked very hard to sell himself to the martial arts community in general, as well as to powerful Hollywood producers, directors and writers, and eventually to the world at large through his movies. And though he was a person of small physical stature, Lee was not of small ego. He NEEDED to be regarded as the best martial artist in the world. This is surely some factor in his seeming disregard for traditional martial arts.

[Kvntu]

Hey thanks for sharing that. Do you think Davis Miller is credible? I haven't read his work on Bruce Lee yet. If its just a sensational hack job written to sell a few copies I will skip it, but if it has some credibility I would be interested. Regardless of what Bruce Lee might or might not of done, his concepts will always have great value to my training. I know if we look too closely at people we admire we find they have feet of clay, so it doesnt bother me too much.

[Justthefacts]

Kvntu: Davis Miller and George Tan were the two biggest hacks of the 1990's. These self-described Bruce Lee historians were simply vultures who attempted to mask their distaste for Bruce Lee by presenting the illusion that they were simply presenting Bruce as a human being rather than an iconic figure. I guess everybody has to make a buck. Bruce Lee had many demons, but he still managed to squeeze every ounce of potential out of his 5'7" 150 pound body. The fact that he is remembered 36 years after his death speaks to his genius.

[Aikia]

Davis Miller is a talented and trained writer. He has another popular book about Ali.
Miller was apparently a Bruce lee fanatic as a kid. He researched Lee's life and times and reported the facts as they were presented. What he didn't do is sugar coat Lee's life.
Bruce had his demons ( didn't you see Dragon,LOL). Really Bruce was into marijuana laced brownies ( a popular Hollywood concoction at the time) and he did some steroids to heal his back. And he knew a few women in Hong Kong. If you can face the fact that Bruce was a real person then the Davis Miller book is good reading. There is a lot of info. Read it. Then make your own conclusions but understand that the information is most likely true.

[Aikia]

Justhefacts, I must have been writing as you were posting. I see we both agree that Bruce had his demons. I don't see Miller as a hack. He is a very skilled writer. Has George Tan actually written anything or just talked about it?

[peppi]

Wing chun represents a fixed style with limitations and routines. Chi sao is a routine, a give and take procedure in which both parties are expected to provide a complimentary response. I have reason to agree with the author in that Bruce Lee sought freedom from the classical style including wing chun. However, I acknowledge that at its foundation wing chun can be said to be a base art. This does not imply that one should study wing chung to learn JKD.

There are many claims about the Wing Chun relation to Jeet Kune Do that vary according to the goal sought. But for me the truth is very different from most of them. In fact, in my book about Wing Chun I first included a whole chapter about Bruce Lee, his Wing Chun knowledge and how this influenced Jeet Kune Do, but on second thought removed it completely. Some people state that Bruce did not know the whole Wing Chun system (which is true) and because of his lack of complete knowledge "filled it" with techniques from other arts. Others say that Bruce Lee saw the limitations of Wing Chun and thus began to modify it. Another popular belief is that Wing Chun served as a basis for Jeet Kune Do because it is direct, efficiend and utilizes economy of motion. However my humble opinion is that the genius of Bruce Lee was much deeper. He understood that ALL styles have limitations if you consider the ranges of combat they are initially designed to operate into. Jeet Kune Do should not be called a style but a concept. Isn't it the pure meaning of the term "mixed" martial arts? In that respect, Wing Chun should be regarded as a system that was designed in certain historical period in China with a particular aim. Jeet Kune Do should be regarded as the concept and idea to be efficient in all ranges with or without weapons in modern times and has a formless form in the end. And all of this, adapted to you and your own unique personality.

[Justthefacts]

Aikia: My hack comment was in reference to Miller's presentation of Bruce Lee's life. Miller's book on Ali received rave reviews, but I was not surprised when his book on Bruce Lee received tepid reviews. To put it bluntly, Miller's presentation of Bruce Lee and his students was a smear campaign. Miller was so lazy that he interviewed only a handful of Bruce Lee's students, yet he had the stones to make sweeping statements about the fighting abilities of ALL of Lee's students. I would bet the house that Miller has no idea that Bob Bremer, Al Novak, and Patrick Strong were students of Bruce Lee. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Miller never heard of these 3 skilled martial artists. I could write my own book about the distortions and half-truths contained in the Tao of Bruce Lee. If you want to read a mostly accurate, no-holds barred presentation of Bruce Lee's life, I would suggest Tom Bleecker's book Unsettled Matters. In terms of George Tan, since 1989, he promised a book series on Bruce Lee entitled Tracking the Dragon. He never delivered on that promise. He produced a documentary on Bruce Lee in the late 1990's, but he has not been heard from since 2003. Here's the kicker, Tan and Miller are good friends.

[Aikia]

peppi, you said "Wing Chun I first included a whole chapter about Bruce Lee, his Wing Chun knowledge and how this influenced Jeet Kune Do, but on second thought removed it completely. Some people state that Bruce did not know the whole Wing Chun system (which is true) and because of his lack of complete knowledge "filled it" with techniques from other arts. Others say that Bruce Lee saw the limitations of Wing Chun and thus began to modify it. Another popular belief is that Wing Chun"

Here's a thought. Bruce was into wing chun. He fights Wong Jack man and we assume he abandoned wing chun because he saw limitations with wing chun. Maybe he dropped wing chun because the Chinese elders told him to not teach Chinese martial arts and Bruce decided to develop his own art so no one could tell him he couldn't teach it.
So, maybe Bruce lee abandoned wing chun not because he thought it didn't work but because he wanted freedom to teach and practice without the elders questioning him.

Justhefacts, I read Bleeker. Interesting read. I think Bruce Lee was, like you said, was a martial arts genius at least 20 years ahead of the others. I have no problem reading the demons part and the success part. Bruce was Bruce. Sounds like you know a lot about it.