JKD credentials

[John McNabney]

Whoo-wee what a thread.....

I been in the Jeet Kune Do game for awhile. The facts are no one was Certified by Bruce Lee as an instructor. All three guys that where mention, none of which has "INSRTUCTOR" on their certificate... It is a fact that these cert. where given out as to show as how many years you where there. As far as Wikipedia, please.... This can be edited by anyone and most of the so called facts at those pages are people's opinions. Guro Dan has made money off his relationship with Bruce Lee, just like other BLS have.... So, please guys...


Notice I said BLS, instead of OBLS.... Why because they are Bruce Lee's students.... In my opinion which I have talked with many of BLS about is...and they agree..... The three so call terms are BULLSHIT that people use are 1) OJKD, 2) JKDC, 3)OBLS.... 1) OJKD - Lost in time or was that just made for the purpose to defined that they are not the so called JKDC group? Hmm? 2) JKDC - Just what the heck is that? Adding to refine? Huh? Was it to say that I can do anything I want and still attach the label to Jeet Kune Do to get students? 3) OBLS..... What is there extra-crispy BLS, LOL....?


I don't like to write long post, but gees....LOL My point is that these so called three terns are killing, dividing, destroying, haters... Which Bruce Lee himself said would happen after his death....? So please, is everyone really doing what Bruce Lee wanted? Here's a thought for you....


BL said: "Therefore, to try and define JKD in terms of a distinct style - be it gung-fu, karate, street fighting, Bruce lee's martial arts, act. - is to completely miss its meaning. Its teaching simply cannot be confined with a system. Since JKD is at once "this and "not this", it neither opposes nor adheres to any style. To understand this fully, one must transcend from duality of "for" and "against" into one unity which is without distinctions. Understanding of JKD is direct intuition of this unity"....


Something to think about.... Huh?

[Wi Kali Group]

I want to be clear I am not trying to denigrate the training or the people in the OJKD faction. Just trying to get the factual history corrected.

Originally Posted by Aikia

WI Kali Group,
Thanks for sharing that information. I had been reading information from another JKD forum. They are the polar opposite.

I can't speak for a forum I don't read or the validity of the info on it.

I read that Mr. Inisanto's certificates were all dated on the same day and that Bruce Lee personally gave out the certificates to Ted Wong.

Yes Dan received all three instructor ranks on the same day. Some feel that is the clear indication Bruce wanted him to carry on after him. I'm sure Bruce did personally give Ted the certificates for level 1 & 2 but Dan gave him his instructor rank.

Both sides agree that Dan had access to the certificates that were already signed by Bruce Lee.
But the most telling evidence is that the Bruce Lee family recognize Ted Wong as the authority on jeet kune do since Dan Inosanto created the JKD concepts method in the mid-late 1970's and that became the version of jeet kune do many people have learned.

No the most telling thing is before his death Brandon Lee trained at the Inosanto academy. A person I know got to train with him out their. The Bruce Lee family a wife who didn't train JKD or Jun Fan or the daughter too young to really have trained or learned anything are far from an authority on JKD. Unlike the only one Bruce Lee certified to teach JKD.

In this latest Teri Tom book she also supports the idea that Bruce Lee taught jeet kune do as a few skills performed many ways.
Interesting how the two sides are so far apart.

This is probably true from Ted Wong's limited knowledge on this. Dan covers this on his DVD's. His only problem with some of the people claiming to teach JKD is they don't know the whole system. They only know what they could learn from bruce. The only tragedy is not that they are teaching what they know. They are passing off the myth that it is the whole thing or the only thing.

Again Teri Tom the Bruce Lee foundation have a problem admitting the truth. It might hurt the bottom line of the foundation. If they admit that Dan was the only one Bruce made an instructor in JKD more people will head to Dan and his instructors not handing over their money to the foundation.

[Wi Kali Group]

Originally Posted by John McNabney

Whoo-wee what a thread.....

I been in the Jeet Kune Do game for awhile. The facts are no one was Certified by Bruce Lee as an instructor. All three guys that where mention, none of which has "INSRTUCTOR" on their certificate...

Yes its a fact that is misleading. Bruce had a rank system of 8 ranks. The fact is you needed a level 3 rank to teach under bruce. Their was an interview years ago with one of Bruce's students (I think it was Poteet). They were talking about not being instructors. The comment made was we never worried about it. They didn't expect Bruce to die so young. I think you may be able to find the interview on youtube.

It is a fact that these cert. where given out as to show as how many years you where there.

That's not a fact its an opinion. Since their were people who were with Bruce longer than Dan who have a lower rank. I'd say its a discredited one.

As far as Wikipedia, please.... This can be edited by anyone and most of the so called facts at those pages are people's opinions. Guro Dan has made money off his relationship with Bruce Lee, just like other BLS have.... So, please guys...

None of that discredits the facts here. And the Wiki site seems to be very accurate.

Notice I said BLS, instead of OBLS.... Why because they are Bruce Lee's students.... In my opinion which I have talked with many of BLS about is...and they agree..... The three so call terms are BULLSHIT that people use are 1) OJKD, 2) JKDC, 3)OBLS.... 1) OJKD - Lost in time or was that just made for the purpose to defined that they are not the so called JKDC group? Hmm? 2) JKDC - Just what the heck is that? Adding to refine? Huh? Was it to say that I can do anything I want and still attach the label to Jeet Kune Do to get students? 3) OBLS..... What is there extra-crispy BLS, LOL....?

I couldn't agree more. Most of the terminology comes from the OJKD guys in the form of putting down the "concepts" guys. You don't hear it from Dan or his top instructors. I only use it to direct my comments at the source of any confusion in the interest of correcting historical errors.

I don't like to write long post, but gees....LOL My point is that these so called three terns are killing, dividing, destroying, haters... Which Bruce Lee himself said would happen after his death....? So please, is everyone really doing what Bruce Lee wanted? Here's a thought for you....

Again I agree but since all I'm doing is correcting the record. You should direct this at the group that is misleading or allowing the historical record to be distorted. If some people would just admit the truth it would go away.

[John McNabney]

So lets be clear here, this was directed to no one.... I have trained in both so called groups of thought for many years and I think both are partural truths of what Bruce Lee was trying to get us to understand, plain & simple...

One tries to start at the azz end of the three stages of cultivation and the other one tries to stay in the first two stages of cultivation.... Which isn't the journey that was what is.... The writing is on the wall, just look at it....

The fact is you needed a level 3 rank to teach under bruce.

Prove this or is this what you heard? Because you seems to like facts and that's a great way to think.... But just to say it's facts, doesn't make it a fact, show me.... My research has proved otherwise!

I'm simply a Jeet Kune Do man only for the purpose of pointing the way....For future generation... My personal art or way of fighting I don't even teach to people....Hmmm? Something to think about...



Keep "IT" Real,

[Wi Kali Group]

Originally Posted by John McNabney

BL said: "Therefore, to try and define JKD in terms of a distinct style - be it gung-fu, karate, street fighting, Bruce lee's martial arts, act. - is to completely miss its meaning. Its teaching simply cannot be confined with a system. Since JKD is at once "this and "not this", it neither opposes nor adheres to any style. To understand this fully, one must transcend from duality of "for" and "against" into one unity which is without distinctions. Understanding of JKD is direct intuition of this unity"....


Something to think about.... Huh?

Not really. I love how many people quote Bruce without reading or at least comprehending what he said.

I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds. Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". . . Jeet Kune Do is not an organized institution that one can be a member of. Either you understand or you don't, and that is that.
There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. The extraordinary part of it lies in its simplicity. Every movement in Jeet Kune-Do is being so of itself. There is nothing artificial about it. I always believe that the easy way is the right way. Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy. The closer to the true way of Kung Fu, the less wastage of expression there is.
Finally, a Jeet Kune Do man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound by another modified pattern and can move within its limits. He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive.
Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back.

Some of the JKD guys (to be clear its mostly found in the OJKD guys but you hate the fraction they created.) are not using what Bruce taught them as a mirror to see them self or teaching their students to do it. In their mirror all they see is what bruce taught them almost 50 years ago. They are clinging to what bruce taught so long ago. In the same way fixed styles were clinging to tradition in Bruce's day.

Bruce said clearly you understand or you don't. I'd say that is just as true then as it is now. Where do you think the people clinging to a snapshot of training would be viewed in Bruce's eyes. I have my opinion.

Some of Bruce's students have
not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive.
Who has more of a mold people who expanded their view and explored. Or someone who clings desperately to the past.

The main reason I am trying to correct the record is so that anyone who feels they can learn from the OJKD guys can do so. I just hope when they cross that river they quit carrying the boat on their back like the OJKD guys do.

To reach the masses, some sort of big organization (whether) domestic and foreign branch affiliation, is not necessary. To reach the growing number of students, some sort of pre-conformed set must be established as standards for the branch to follow. As a result all members will be conditioned according to the prescribed system. Many will probably end up as a prisoner of a systematized drill.
Styles tend to not only separate men - because they have their own doctrines and then the doctrine became the gospel truth that you cannot change. But if you do not have a style, if you just say: Well, here I am as a human being, how can I express myself totally and completely? Now, that way you won't create a style, because style is a crystallization. That way, it's a process of continuing growth.
To me totality is very important in sparring. Many styles claim this totality. They say that they can cope with all types of attacks; that their structures cover all the possible lines and angles, and are capable of retaliation from all angles and lines. If this is true, then how did all the different styles come about? If they are in totality, why do some use only the straight lines, others the round lines, some only kicks, and why do still others who want to be different just flap and flick their hands? To me a system that clings to one small aspect of combat is actually in bondage.

Some of the JKD factions claim this totality. It's hardly unique to JKD. Some MMA camps claim it also. So who is more true to Bruce the ones that claim no totality and branched out like Dan, Larry and others or the ones locked into the past.

Learn the principle, abide by the principle, and dissolve the principle. In short, enter a mold without being caged in it. Obey the principle without being bound by it. LEARN, MASTER AND ACHIEVE!!!

Knowledge in martial arts actually means self-knowledge. A martial artist has to take responsibility for himself and accept the consequences of his own doing. The understanding of JKD is through personal feeling from movement to movement in the mirror of the relationship and not through a process of isolation. To be is to be related. To isolate is death. To me, ultimately, martial arts means honestly expressing yourself. Now, it is very difficult to do. It has always been very easy for me to put on a show and be cocky, and be flooded with a cocky feeling and feel pretty cool and all that. I can make all kinds of phoney things. Blinded by it. Or I can show some really fancy movement. But to experience oneself honestly, not lying to oneself, and to express myself honestly, now that is very hard to do.

Some in the JKD family are very good at learning and abiding by the principle but have not reached the point where they dissolve the principle. Maybe they just don't have the ability or aptitude. I don't feel the need or desire to judge them. Bruce was constantly learning what he could. It's been commented on various threads that Bruce went through at least 3 phases. If he had lived another 3-10 years I'm sure it would have gone through between 3-8 more phases. He was constantly going out and learning. People know this. They use it as a means of attacking Dan (He wasn't there at the beginning or at the end. I take exception to this as I remember hearing that Bruce told Dan to explore the FMA and see what it had to offer.) But which students do you think were really honoring Bruce the ones that continued his work exploring various arts (knowing they could never complete his work.). Or the ones who isolated Bruce's work and in Bruce's own words.

The understanding of JKD is through personal feeling from movement to movement in the mirror of the relationship and not through a process of isolation. To be is to be related. To isolate is death.

Now their is something to really think about.

[Kvntu]

One thing I feel is certain is if Brandon was still alive there wouldn’t be this “division”. Brandon was very close to Dan Inosanto and did all his JKD training exclusively with him. Brandon Lee even asked Dan to be in several of his movies, but Dan declined fearing he would look like he was riding on the shoulders of Bruce Lee’s son. With Dan’s strong connection to the very talented son of Bruce Lee, obviously the OJKD group would have lost its momentum. Sadly with the passing of Brandon certain individuals were able to convince members of the Lee family who knew little about JKD that Bruce’s art was getting watered down and endangered of being lost. I can only assume this was done for financial gain. What I don’t understand is why there is controversy in the first place. Dan teaches the original JKD! Yes he teaches kali but he does so in a separate class. Dan’s JKD classes are a complete view of how and what Bruce taught. I remember Ted Wong telling me that you should first learn JKD as Bruce taught it and then if you wanted to change things for yourself that’s fine. How is this different from Dan? Having said all that, do I feel Dan is the only source to go to for JKD? Absolutely not and I have personally studied with both concepts and original folk. I wish we could evolve away from these original vs concept or extra crispy approaches because it makes the public feel like they are going to KFC to make an order for martial arts! Any way, good thread with lots of good posts and different opinions.

[Wi Kali Group]

Originally Posted by John McNabney

So lets be clear here, this was directed to no one.... I have trained in both so called groups of thought for many years and I think both are partural truths of what Bruce Lee was trying to get us to understand, plain & simple...

Prove this or is this what you heard? Because you seems to like facts and that's a great way to think.... But just to say it's facts, doesn't make it a fact, show me.... My research has proved otherwise!

I'm simply a Jeet Kune Do man only for the purpose of pointing the way....For future generation... My personal art or way of fighting I don't even teach to people....Hmmm? Something to think about...



Keep "IT" Real,

I think we agree much more than we disagree. I've never heard Dan claim to know all. If he did I don't think he would have researched all the arts after Bruce Died.

The main difference is some of the OJKD guys (or at least their students) claim some kind of mythical authority because a woman who was married to sifu started an organization. Or they are friends with his daughter. Or at least that is the way they come off.

I had a exchange with someone claiming to be a Ted Wong student on another site. I mentioned pretty much everything I did here. He talked it over with Ted and got back to me.

Ted never claimed to him to have a 3rd rank in JKD. It's like what has been on here before. He recieved rank in JKD from Bruce. But again it doesn't dispute that he only recieved level 1 or 2 from bruce. To me if he really had the 3rd rank to teach from Bruce he would say so. He uses the term rank. Not instructor rank. Also if he was really an instructor why didn't he teach and open a school till after Bruce died. I don't need to prove anything to anyone. People with a modicum of common sense can figure out what I'm saying makes quite a bit of sense.

I do keep it real. But when you are pointing the way try to point it in a way that makes common sense.

[John McNabney]

Wi Kail Group.....What is your name again? Since we like truth, right....

You bring up a few points, I'll give you that... But by your very point that you are trying to say about how people don't understnad what he (BL) is saying.... Is that not what you have done to my post? Are you not hearing what I'm saying? Do you think I'm a OJKD guy? Do you think I'm a JKDC guy?

Imagine how things get lost in translation, Hmm? You bring up BL talking about being a human being, there lies the answer to self.


p.s. When I came to the self - understanding of knowing that I'm the only guy that can "SEE" through my eye's..... I was free - free at last...


Something to think about....


Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney

[Wi Kali Group]

First off I have two reason for being anon. First their are a ton of unstable people on the web (if anyone is feeling guilty its not my fault ). And two I want my words and opinions to be judged on their merit. If I gave my resume and accomplishments some could give my post more weight than they deserve. Or some people who clearly can't attack my facts or deductive reasoning could use it to attack a very credible position.

You point out that you have trained in both camps. This could lead some to put weight on your comments that they might not otherwise. If you were more like me they would judge you on the substance of your maybe erratic posts.

You talk about not teaching. This again puts forth an air of selflessness. Nothing wrong with that but again it has nothing to do with the argument. Now if you had a school where you taught JKD privately that would appear to be duplicitous but again would not have anything to do with the argument.

I don't care who you are or what your credentials are. I am just judging you on the discussion you jumped into. I have never said any of the JKD guys were idiots or worthless. (At least by design). Just trying to point out some of the misconceptions. I have T. Tom's first book. If Ted wong was teaching a seminar nearby and I could afford to go I'd be their. I just think that by being dishonest in the state of things is not only disrespectful to Dan but to Bruce as well. In Ted's case hey Bruce didn't make him an instructor so what. Being Bruce's sparring partner should be accolades enough. Bruce trained with so few people of such great talent he should be proud of that. But what has transpired out of the OJKD camp they should be ashamed.

[John McNabney]

First off I have two reason for being anon. First their are a ton of unstable people on the web (if anyone is feeling guilty its not my fault ). And two I want my words and opinions to be judged on their merit. If I gave my resume and accomplishments some could give my post more weight than they deserve. Or some people who clearly can't attack my facts or deductive reasoning could use it to attack a very credible position.

You point out that you have trained in both camps. This could lead some to put weight on your comments that they might not otherwise. If you were more like me they would judge you on the substance of your maybe erratic posts.

Thats fine it's your choice... I think though it is easy to be behind a pc and say what you will without countiblity of who you are....

You talk about not teaching. This again puts forth an air of selflessness. Nothing wrong with that but again it has nothing to do with the argument. Now if you had a school where you taught JKD privately that would appear to be duplicitous but again would not have anything to do with the argument.

Oh, I didn't say I don't teach (your are reading more what you want to see , than what is)... So that I'm clear, "I don't teach my friends, MY PERSONAL ART"..... I do point the way to their understanding of themself & Jeet Kune Do (with out a letter before & after it)

I don't care who you are or what your credentials are. I am just judging you on the discussion you jumped into. I have never said any of the JKD guys were idiots or worthless. (At least by design). Just trying to point out some of the misconceptions. I have T. Tom's first book. If Ted wong was teaching a seminar nearby and I could afford to go I'd be their. I just think that by being dishonest in the state of things is not only disrespectful to Dan but to Bruce as well. In Ted's case hey Bruce didn't make him an instructor so what. Being Bruce's sparring partner should be accolades enough. Bruce trained with so few people of such great talent he should be proud of that. But what has transpired out of the OJKD camp they should be ashamed.

I have a right to post on this fourm because I'm a member and have been one for a while.... So I don't think I just jumped into a discussion....As far as reading to much into it, well that was your choice again.... Now as far as your last statement, your right....That can also be said about the JKDC camp, they are gulty as sin as well....


Both groups well are in what Bruce Le called "ORGANIZED DESPAIR"....On


It was nice posting with you, "Have a Great Day"


Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney

[Wi Kali Group]

Originally Posted by John McNabney

I'm simply a Jeet Kune Do man only for the purpose of pointing the way....For future generation... My personal art or way of fighting I don't even teach to people....Hmmm? Something to think about...

Keep "IT" Real,

Well maybe I did mistake what you said. But I don't think a normal person could blame me. You talk about organized despair I'd say that is your end of a conversation. Unless you started a thread you are jumping into a conversation. And you did so with gusto. Since I have not started a thread yet I've jumped into all of mine. I didn't say butted into. You seem to just want to find something to complain about.

Good luck

[Michael Wright]

Every once in a while this discussion always comes around, this is about the 10th time we have seen it on this forum.

Guro Inosanto told me that when Bruce Lee gave him his level three certificates in Jun Fan Gung Fu, the Tao of Chinese Gung Fu, and Jeet Kune Do that he told him (and many others who were there) that he was qualifying him as an Instructor in all three arts. Mr Lee asked Guro Inosanto to be the primary instructor at the Chinatown school, left him a loose teaching structure, and told him to run with it and take care of the teaching duties in his absence. No, none of this is written on a piece of paper, well whoop dee doo.

I have never heard anyone dispute this series of events, not the Lee family or any of the other Bruce Lee students I have met including the likes of Ted Wong and Jerry Poteet - who have nothing but love and respect for Guro Dan. Therefore, to all the people who keep dragging these accusations up, I say to you that it can only come down to one of two simple choices.

1. Guro Dan is lying, always has been, and has managed to con everyone around him for over 40 years - including people who were actually there.

2. You weren't there, probably weren't even born, and don't know jack shit. Like everyone else in these endless bullshit political discussions, you are just wasting everyone's time with unfounded, fictional speculation.

Ultimately, I couldn't give a shit. You can take every single certificate that Dan Inosanto has ever received and flush them down the toilet. And to be honest, I also couldnt give a shit if Dan Inosanto never even met Bruce Lee. I never went to study with him because of Bruce Lee, I went to study with him because of Dan Inosanto.

[Aikia]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

Every once in a while this discussion always comes around, this is about the 10th time we have seen it on this forum.


1. Guro Dan is lying, always has been, and has managed to con everyone around him for over 40 years - including people who were actually there.

MW,
That's a little strong. But as you so eloquently pointed out some people actually feel like this.
It looks to me like the confusion was inadvertently instituted by Guro Dan himself when he created the JKD concepts method in the late 1970's. For a number of years there was much discussion about who actually created the JKDC: Guro Dan or Bruce Lee? Once the JKDC versus OJKD controversy erupted people naturally took sides.
The fact that Guro Dan has always been the authority on JKD is not the issue, nor is his level 3 certificate and obvious fact that he was the 'teacher' at the Chinatown kwoon.
The current climate is to imply that there is only one JKD and this being the case Sifu Inosanto is the elder ( and a master to masters).
The introduction of the JKDC is the point of contention here, not those that side with OJKD or the Inosanto Academy.

[Michael Wright]

It is strong, but my point is that ultimately this is what a lot of people are saying, but they dance around it and never really have the balls to spell it out. Needless to say, in case anyone missed it, I believe that option two is the truth.

In terms of JKDC, OJKD or just JKD full stop I couldn't care a less. I stopped using the word JKD a number of years ago, because I became so tired of all this. I teach Inosanto Martial Arts.

[Aikia]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

It is strong, but my point is that ultimately this is what a lot of people are saying, but they dance around it and never really have the balls to spell it out. Needless to say, in case anyone missed it, I believe that option two is the truth.

In terms of JKDC, OJKD or just JKD full stop I couldn't care a less. I stopped using the word JKD a number of years ago, because I became so tired of all this. I teach Inosanto Martial Arts.

MW,
That's an excellent point. You teach Inosanto martial arts. To me that carries a lot more weight than to say "the JKD concept". The JKDC has become the source of infighting and misinformation. Guro Dan has had many more years to train and research than did Bruce Lee. The Inosanto concept is the true base for modern mixed martial arts. JKD, IMO is not the forerunner of MMA. It was Dan Inosanto's concepts that promoted the flow and the cross training among arts.
IMO there is just so much more in the Inosanto MA than there is in JKD I don't understand why "IMA" is not promoted at the level of prestige it deserves. If there was no JKDC then there would be no OJKD. There would only be JKD.