JKD credentials

[John McNabney]

Originally Posted by Aikia

If there was no JKDC then there would be no OJKD. There would only be JKD.

What a wonderful world that would be! ;-)


I have been one of the few 2nd Gen. to speak up about this, I've been talking about this for years and flamed because of "IT"

[peppi]

"In one interview Boztepe even stated Bruce realized he will never be number one in wing chun, so he took a different path."

The original sources of this information were Seattle Era students Jesse Glover and James DeMile.

Thanks so much for clarifying this fact for me! I watched the interview with Boztepe about 10 years ago. At that time I had no idea what JKD is all about. Regarding Inosanto my sensei in JiuJitsu told me he had met him personally and Inosanto is indeed a very intelligent, modest and polite man.

[Wi Kali Group]

Originally Posted by Aikia

MW,
That's an excellent point. You teach Inosanto martial arts. To me that carries a lot more weight than to say "the JKD concept". The JKDC has become the source of infighting and misinformation.

The biggest source of misinformation has been people in any JKD camp who couldn't understand what Bruce wrote. OJKD guys like Dan & Larry (and anyone I'm not aware of) didn't create, start or otherwise divert into a splinter of conceptual JKD. I'm quoting Bruce on this

I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds. Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves".

Now to me that sounds like JKD is not a style that can be taught like Jun Fan, MMA, Muay Thai or Boxing. That in my opinion is why they simply referred correctly in my opinion to JKD as concepts. If its not a physical style of techniques you can teach what is it. A philosophy sounds good. That can be called a concept. Its why Dan has Jun Fan Classes not JKD classes. When you honestly look at what the OJKD guys teach its a style. It's a collection of techniques. They might be teaching JKD but the vehicle they are using is Jun Fan Gung Fu. The minute they slapped the marketing term Original JKD to add legitimacy (that either isn't there or isn't needed) they started the ball rolling.

Guro Dan has had many more years to train and research than did Bruce Lee. The Inosanto concept is the true base for modern mixed martial arts. JKD, IMO is not the forerunner of MMA. It was Dan Inosanto's concepts that promoted the flow and the cross training among arts.
IMO there is just so much more in the Inosanto MA than there is in JKD I don't understand why "IMA" is not promoted at the level of prestige it deserves. If there was no JKDC then there would be no OJKD. There would only be JKD.

I agree. But that shows the true nature of Dan. He claims no greatness. He claims no mantle. He is very respectful of all his instructors. He doesn't try to put down the OJKD guys. He seems to feel that they serve a purpose. The only thing I've heard him say (in an interview on his DVD) is that some claiming to teach JKD don't know the whole thing. He seems to feel that he has done his best to continue Bruce's work.

And these people who think he should call it IMA or something other than JKD. Well he would have every right to. But I'm sure he feels that would be as disrespectful to Bruce and his art at what others have done all over.

Some of the ones espousing calling JKD something else if you didn't learn from Bruce. Or want some of us to be silent as some lie and distort history (either by design, ignorance or omission) are just passively taking part in the smear campaign of at least two great men.

[Kvntu]

People are free to call what Dan Inosanto teaches whatever they want. Dan makes it clear he is teaching "The Art & Philosophy of Jeet Kune Do". He even states that clearly on his website. Since he worked with Bruce Lee directly I think I will go with his description of what he is teaching rather than second hand thinking or armchair experts. If you choose not to call what he teaches JKD then where do you send someone that desires to learn it?

[Justthefacts]

IMO, if you take the common sense approach to this issue, the first thing you look at is the timeline for Bruce Lee's art. Dan Inosanto began training with Bruce Lee in late 1964, Lee coined the term JKD in early 1966, and Sifu Inosanto proceded to teach 90 percent of the JKD classes at the Chinatown school from 1967-1970. Sifu Inosanto is the ONLY Bruce Lee student that, no pun intended, bridged the gap between the Oakland Era and the L.A./Chinatown Era.

[Aikia]

Originally Posted by Justthefacts

IMO, if you take the common sense approach to this issue, the first thing you look at is the timeline for Bruce Lee's art. Dan Inosanto began training with Bruce Lee in late 1964, Lee coined the term JKD in early 1966, and Sifu Inosanto proceded to teach 90 percent of the JKD classes at the Chinatown school from 1967-1970. Sifu Inosanto is the ONLY Bruce Lee student that, no pun intended, bridged the gap between the Oakland Era and the L.A./Chinatown Era.

Technically the term jeet kune do was first entered into Bruce Lee's notes in 1967 (this accdording to John Little ,official biographer for the estate). In one of the first publications after Bruce Lee died Dan Inosanto notes that jeet kune do was not formalized until 1968. The students at the Chinatown school were taught jeet kune do style kicks, jeet kune do style stances and strikes etc. Jeet kune do was the style of Bruce Lee and JKD has even been recognized as the art/style of Bruce Lee in China. Dan Inosanto has been quotes as saying that he couldn't do the jeet kune do like Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee encouraged Dan to investigate his art of escrima, later called kali.
One argument is that Ted Wong was present at Lee's house more so than other students and therefore had more training time under Bruce Lee.
Of course Dan inosanto was a black belt before he met Bruce Lee and was an accomplished athlete so he was most likely able to 'absorb" more.
The facts, to me anyway, suggest that Dan Inosanto was the most advanced student. After Lee died in 1973 and book and magazine writers started digging for info on Bruce Lee it was Dan Inosanto that the other students pointed to as the official "spokesperson" for JKD.

[Kvntu]

I suppose the logical question to ask is if Ted Wong had more instruction than anyone else including Dan, why didn't Bruce certify him to a level 3? Just curious.

[Aikia]

Originally Posted by Kvntu

I suppose the logical question to ask is if Ted Wong had more instruction than anyone else including Dan, why didn't Bruce certify him to a level 3? Just curious.

If Mr.Wong started in 1968 and Mr.Lee quit teaching JKD in Jan 1970 that means Sifu Ted practiced JKD for two years and received the level 2 certificate.
Mr. I started JKD in 1967 when the art first appeared. Doing the math that gives him level 3 for 3 years.
Of course this is just speculation. One of the great mysteries of life is what Bruce Lee actually intended to recognize with his "levels" system. He most likely was influenced by the kyu/grade system used in other arts of his era. In three years a person may make black belt in TKD and blue belt in BJJ. We'll never know.

[Razinghell]

This is just getting bothersome. All of the arguing is just that arguing. It doesnt matter.

Learn and train. It really doesnt matter who it is from as long as it works for you and you are having fun doing it. There alot of great instructors in the world that have researched Bruce's concepts and integrated it into there own experience. Isn't that the point.


Research, Experiment and Develop your own experience.

[Kvntu]

Actually I am enjoying this thread and everyone is giving their opinions without getting belligerent or flaming. Any way, I think the point is how do we really get to the heart of what Bruce Lee was trying to convey. Most of us feel it has value and want to know it as accurately as possible. It’s a little frustrating because Bruce’s life was cut short. So we are left with his writings and the people that knew him. From that we try and put it together. Did one person understand what Bruce was teaching better than another? I suppose we look at the person and their relationship with Bruce and then judge what they are saying by the writings Bruce left.

[Aikia]

Originally Posted by Kvntu

Actually I am enjoying this thread and everyone is giving their opinions without getting belligerent or flaming. Any way, I think the point is how do we really get to the heart of what Bruce Lee was trying to convey. Most of us feel it has value and want to know it as accurately as possible. It’s a little frustrating because Bruce’s life was cut short. So we are left with his writings and the people that knew him. From that we try and put it together. Did one person understand what Bruce was teaching better than another? I suppose we look at the person and their relationship with Bruce and then judge what they are saying by the writings Bruce left.

Well said. I would add that if you are happy with the OBLS that you are training with that "satisfaction" should show in your posts.
I use the term"OBLS" because after all we each can be said to be a student of Bruce Lee.

[Wi Kali Group]

Originally Posted by Aikia

(this accdording to John Little ,official biographer for the estate).

Some of the comments based on his work doesn't seem to be too accurate so I'm skeptical of him. But to be fair he may have accurately reported as given to him (allowing for human error).

The students at the Chinatown school were taught jeet kune do style kicks, jeet kune do style stances and strikes etc. Jeet kune do was the style of Bruce Lee and JKD has even been recognized as the art/style of Bruce Lee in China.

Jun Fan Gung Fu is the name of Bruce's Style that is recognized in China. Dan mentions this on his DVD.

Dan Inosanto has been quotes as saying that he couldn't do the jeet kune do like Bruce Lee.

I think Dan has been quoted as saying no one could. He mentioned that is what really attracted him to Kali/Escrima. In other arts you might meet a few people that really stand out as exceptional. With the FMA most of the old master had Bruce like attributes (Maybe not on Bruce's level). He wanted to know what about their art might have caused it.

Bruce Lee encouraged Dan to investigate his art of escrima, later called kali.

Amen.

One argument is that Ted Wong was present at Lee's house more so than other students and therefore had more training time under Bruce Lee.

Since Ted wasn't running one of Bruce's schools like Bruce's instructors or teaching in any way I'm sure he had lots more free time than Bruce's instructors.

Of course Dan inosanto was a black belt before he met Bruce Lee and was an accomplished athlete so he was most likely able to 'absorb" more.

I don't know where to find it. But when you hear Dan's students talk about his early history before Bruce's it sounds pretty impressive.

The facts, to me anyway, suggest that Dan Inosanto was the most advanced student. After Lee died in 1973 and book and magazine writers started digging for info on Bruce Lee it was Dan Inosanto that the other students pointed to as the official "spokesperson" for JKD.

Amen

A most excellent post.

[Justthefacts]

Bruce Lee was aware that Dan Inosanto had most of the necessary qualities to carry on his art. Sifu Inosanto's background in the educational system rubbed off on Bruce Lee as evidenced by Lee's use of the daily planner beginning in the late 60's. He was so confident in Sifu Inosanto's abilities as a teacher that he allowed Inosanto to teach 90 percent of the Chinatown classes. As I mentioned before, Inosanto had trained with Bruce Lee two years prior to Lee coining the term JKD. Bruce Lee even had a poster made depicting the word/JKD symbol with the date 1966 underlined at the bottom. Inosanto has stated in several interviews that in 1966, Bruce Lee began using the term JKD and several Oakland students claim that Bruce used the term JKD in late 1965. Yes, Sifu Inosanto was not the best fighter of the Chinatown Era, but he certainly could convey the techniques and the ESSENCE of JKD better than any other Bruce Lee student.

[Wi Kali Group]

Does anyone know where the myth about your rank being based on years came from. Was it accidental by the clueless (maybe just trying to explain the contradiction of Dan being ranked higher than their instructor teaching "real JKD") or was is a purposeful campaign by some faction desperately trying to claim some level of credibility they felt or knew they didn't have. I'm not sure of the names (feel free to help anyone) but their were students with Bruce longer than Dan and Taky Kimura was the only one promoted higher.

[Aikia]

Wi Kali Group,
Keep in mind that jeet kune do was conceived in 1967 and organized most likely in late 1967 ( Bruce was by then recruiting Norris/Lewis/Stone to become his students and study jeet kune do).
JKD was to be without rank as a non-classical system. Between 67-69 (closed school in Jan 1970) JKD was taught much like a style with a JKD type lead hand strike and JKD type non-chambered kicks, footwork etc. All of the OBLS that studied the JKD shared certain skills.
The JKD certificates simply indicate level 1.level, 1.5 etc. The levels also correspond to the years of JKD practice the recipient had. JKD as an art lasted only 3 years. The person who was involved all three years was Guro Dan. Ted Wong started in 1968; he received level 2.

More revealing is the revelation that Lee's private student Stirling Sylliphant received the 3rd level. He was privately trained by Bruce in '67,'68,'69. Three years for level 3 in JKD.

Is this conjecture, mere coincidence? Could be. The idea has been floating around for some years.
Why did some OJKD students (many have been students of JKD but only a few dozen can claim to have been "original" students in the "original" class). The answer appears to be"they asked Bruce for a certificate".
When he died the extra, signed, blank JKD certificates were left at Dan's place.
Maybe Bruce had planed to hand out more, maybe not.Linda Emery "Lee" received a 2nd rank. Guess she didn't need a higher rank.
Hope that info helps.