Functional Training..

[Wi-Stickboxer]

As time goes by my training is continually changing. Things I stuck by 3 weeks ago are being examined or thrown out completely! Many things taught in JKD are "pattern thinking",whereas fights (or fighting) are real,unpredictable ALIVE things.

If I trained BJJ like most folks train FMA I wouldn't be a very good grappler. I have come to the realization that there is a lot of unnecessary stuff in my teaching,and that I've kept certain things because they "look cool". I would ask that everyone here (who already hasn't) to let go of their inner "Kung Fu nerd" and ask themselves if they're doing things that are really efficient. You will,of course,come to some different conclusions than I did. That's the benifit to living your OWN experiences!

I would like to thank Michael Wright,who with some of his replys and posts has inspired me to live my own martial art experiences. I'd like to thank Burton Richardson and Matt Thornton for inspiring me in the areas of aliveness and personal liberation. I'd like to thank Paul Vunak,for teaching my instructor,and for not caring what anyone thinks of him. To AIKIA (aka Dr Beasley) for conducting some interesting internet forum socialogical experiments.

Be yourself.

[Wi Kali Group]

The only real problem I see here. (I'm not claiming you are pushing any of this. Just offering clarity on the subject)

First you have to take in the 3 years of training you have had (that you in some cases are discarding) and ask if you are better prepared for your alive training because of it. I would think an honest person would say yes. Or would at least say most people would be better off. So people should not be discouraged from going through the same 3 years of training you did to get where you are now at.

If you watch how MMA fighters routinely get hurt from their training (fights getting canceled or you always here on TUF from every coach about how nobody fights 100%). That is you trained FMA, Silat or some elemets of JKD like MMA you would be Dead, crippled, Missing one or two eyes or too injured to train. It's one of the reason's sports like Boxing & Jits can make such an effective (notice can not an automatic does) form of self defense. They lend them selves to to hard training with out being dangerous.

The problem with the pattern thinking you find in JKD or FMA comes not from the art but from the teachers. If you are learning from a seminar Sifu (someone who got their Certification from a distance vs years of training full time with Say Dan or Paul.) they have to have patterns to learn it from themselves. Some never make the jump past the patterns.

Not so much a tangent as an example - In you look around you hear talk about the various stages of sombrada. (a counter for counter drill in some FMA styles) If you ask people like Sifu Vunak he doesn't know what you mean. He learned sombrada from Dan. Dan can probably teach you more about sombrada in a hour or two than most people teaching know. When Dan is at seminars he has to spoon feed people a little at a time. Then if they get that down they can add more the next time. The sad thing is most never progress. If you don't know how to walk right he can't teach you to run.

It's the same with lockflows, and all the drills JKD and FMA teach. When I went to seminars you always heard that (from Dan, Larry, Paul & Tim Tackett) that this was the basic level and they would hint or flat out tell you what to do to advance it. Larry at a seminar mentioned that at one seminar they locked the doors, put on the gloves and (the drills he was showing us) did them for real. He said only 5 people came back from lunch.

So in general when you hear anyone talk about aliveness and its lack in JKD or FMA either they are dishonest or really don't know what they are talking about. It's been their since at least the 80's (I'm not that old ). Now it might be true for individual schools/instructors. But not the Art as a whole.

And when you hear some of them (again in general terms) bash arts. When I hears someone bash FMA training or trapping training. If they look about as good as someone with 1 year or less of training I don't give their opinion much weight. (Mike Wright clearly doesn't fit in this category I've not seen his stick work but his empty hands is crisp.)

I'm sure back when the FMA and Indonesian arts were being used against people with knives, swords & guns (look up the MORO WARRIORS) their were people who bitched about how the drilling was not alive enough. And the ones that trained too alive probably eventually died. And the ones that skipped the drills got killed in combat. Unfortunately we live in too civilized society to weed this type of thinking out.

Now all I'M doing is adding some perspective to a good post. Anyone who trains anything should examine it every so often. But remember when anyone talks about anything being functional or alive it should be considered as an opinion not a fact or a truth. If you take the Dog Brothers no one sane can argue that what they do isn't functional and realistic. But I bet most (if not all) the alive camps would not consider what they do sane. By the same token these schools pushing the aliveness should understand it's not for everyone. And you can learn with out it. It will take longer. It might not be as effective. But it would be better than nothing at all.

Tangent - I recently was looking for a place to train. It was a MMA school with one JKD class. The acting instructor (he was teaching the class but was not certified as a teacher by his sifu) was always ripping on the Dog Brothers (the school shall remain nameless) but its one of many reasons I bailed on the school. As a rule for me. If they are ripping on anyone else I ask this question why are they ripping on others. You only put down others to make what you do look better. Which means what you are pushing probably not that good.

Tangent Over

Again I'm not bashing anyone here. If I'm reading Wi-stickbox right I agree with his post. Just offering an opinion to help those who don't have years of training like WISB.

[Wi-Stickboxer]

A Dog Bros maxim is "If you see it taught,you see it fought." It's just that I sometimes wonder how much is necessary,and how much is because I "like" it? I mean,really,how many Sinawali patterns do I need? When I get together with my instructor now,he is still doing the same 90's era PFS curriculim he did when I first started. I respect him,and it's fun,but it's starting to get a bit stale...

I've done MMA training,and I've had a go at the cage. The training itself was quite safe. The matches were "challenging",but I expected that (I've lost,ALOT). I just think,after all this time,this is the best we can come up with? Sumbrada,Numerada,Serrada? Why make a big deal about JKD being about fighting,when we've traded our Japanese Kata for southeast asian ones? My path is my own. Some destructions work,some don't. My definition of "trapping" includes clinching.

I recieved Apprentice rank in '05,but I have no desire to take it any further. I recieved my first Black belt in 1984,but I have no desire to pursue that any further. We are what we want to be,who we admire. I have no desire to be the "sifu",I am an eternal student,never satisfied with my progress.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from. I once went over to my instructor's,and he and a training partner were both sporting cuts on their faces and hands. They had been sparring,double sticks against a chair. The chair broke and showered them with splinters. I still do that crap. I use gear,I get hurt,but I put my art to the test.

[Wi-Stickboxer]

Wow,this all sounds too serious! Have fun and do what you like. Life's too short to argue about this stuff!

[Wi-Stickboxer]

I've been too sick to train,and I was going to give a grappling tournament up here a go. I think the Ny-Quill and frustration are getting to me... Can't train until I get well!

[Michael Wright]

As time goes by my training is continually changing. Things I stuck by 3 weeks ago are being examined or thrown out completely! Many things taught in JKD are "pattern thinking",whereas fights (or fighting) are real,unpredictable ALIVE things.

If I trained BJJ like most folks train FMA I wouldn't be a very good grappler. I have come to the realization that there is a lot of unnecessary stuff in my teaching,and that I've kept certain things because they "look cool". I would ask that everyone here (who already hasn't) to let go of their inner "Kung Fu nerd" and ask themselves if they're doing things that are really efficient. You will,of course,come to some different conclusions than I did. That's the benifit to living your OWN experiences!

I would like to thank Michael Wright,who with some of his replys and posts has inspired me to live my own martial art experiences. I'd like to thank Burton Richardson and Matt Thornton for inspiring me in the areas of aliveness and personal liberation. I'd like to thank Paul Vunak,for teaching my instructor,and for not caring what anyone thinks of him. To AIKIA (aka Dr Beasley) for conducting some interesting internet forum socialogical experiments.

Be yourself.

Thank you very much for your kind words, and I am genuinely honoured if anything I have said on here has prompted a thought process in your mind. If you've decided to take the move of following your own path and being yourself, that’s the best move you can make in any area of life. Congratulations also for doing it so soon, wish I was as sharp as you.

Whenever you take the step and make this decision you will be faced with people who don't want you to leave the religion, and they try to pull you back. You will be told that you are missing the point, that you can't see the bigger picture, that you have no right to make this decision until you have 50 years experience, or that you are unworthy of questioning those who came before you - whose truth is not to be challenged.

Above all, you will be told that the methods you were taught got you to where you are now, and therefore you owe it to other people to give them the same training. This is complete nonsense. There is nothing wrong in any endeavour be that academia, sports, arts, music, military or any learning process where you say "I believe I can offer a more effective way of learning this". Its not a question of whether you are right or wrong, it’s a question of being true to yourself. You will find out soon enough if what you are offering is really making a difference, because people vote with their feet.

I just got back tonight from a 500 mile round trip of teaching seminars. I explained to each group at the start, as I always do, that everything you learn from the start to the end of the seminar will be taught in an alive, functional manner. There are no sets, no patterns, no drills, no sequences and nothing where you have to take what I say on faith. Everything we do today will be verifiable right in front of you i.e. its either going to work or it won’t. I teach these seminars to people with 6 weeks experience up to 16 years experience, aged from their late teens to their early fifties.

It is clear to see, right in front of me every time I teach, that students do not need the plethora of dead training that people want us to believe they do. I watch people get very competent, very quickly, and no one gets lost or left behind. Our biggest failing as martial arts instructors is to underestimate and discredit the intelligence and ability of the average human being to learn in a functional way. We decided a long time ago that they must need years of convoluted, meaningless drilling – because we did. The fact is we didn’t, we simply allowed people to convince us that we did. Its not my intention to do the same to anyone I teach.

Good luck, and enjoy the journey.

[Wi Kali Group]

Once again I was seriously misunderstood. And the sad thing is I really worked hard not to be. What you and Mike are going through is completely natural. And to be honest if you feel its stale it is time to move on. But again (And I think this backed up by your comment that they are doing the same stuff as when you started.) is it truly the art or the instructor. You may be in the process of evolving your personal training. Maybe your instructor can't I don't know. Maybe he just likes what he's doing. If he evolved like you are doing maybe you would feel different.

You say you don't want to be the sifu. That is too bad cause you seem to have some good instincts. You feel your training needs to change with out the need to bash anyone else. (Unless I misread your post. )

And I never implied you owe it to others to train them in any such way. All said was for others not to assume that it was worthless.

Again I think you expressed much the same opinions as Mike. Just you didn't trash the way other people train. Keep on posting. (And Mike I'm commenting on your past posts not this current one.) Especially how your training progresses.

But I still meant everything I said & I think its 100% on target. Sorry it was misinterpreted.

[Aikia]

A few decades ago I had become an accomplished point fighter. I was a teacher at a summer camp that had also employed a golden gloves boxer. The two of us sparred one day. After a left hook put me down I became his student. Once you experience real contact fighting with intent to do harm to your opponent, the experience can either turn you on or turn you off. I was turned on.
I pretty much gave up acquiring new skills in favor of learning how to better deliver the skills I already had.
Here's what I learned: It's not the technique that's important;it's the delivery that counts. It's not the art that wins the fight it's the individual that makes the difference.
Practice makes permanent. Practice the way you intend to perform and you'll do just fine.
Good luck.

[Wi-Stickboxer]

I am just now realizing that I was a pattern based martial artist. I have had good functional training. Going back to something else was just confiming my insecurities. Truth is outside of certificates,belts,trophies,and of course,all fixed patterns!

[John McNabney]

Going back to something else was just confiming my insecurities. Truth is outside of certificates,belts,trophies,and of course,all fixed patterns!

Nice! This is about one of the best things I read here in this fourm in a long time..... It's that way ------------------------------->

[fire cobra]

A few decades ago I had become an accomplished point fighter. I was a teacher at a summer camp that had also employed a golden gloves boxer. The two of us sparred one day. After a left hook put me down I became his student. Once you experience real contact fighting with intent to do harm to your opponent, the experience can either turn you on or turn you off. I was turned on.
I pretty much gave up acquiring new skills in favor of learning how to better deliver the skills I already had.
Here's what I learned: It's not the technique that's important;it's the delivery that counts. It's not the art that wins the fight it's the individual that makes the difference.
Practice makes permanent. Practice the way you intend to perform and you'll do just fine.
Good luck.

I understand where your coming from Aikia but belive that some arts are already more functional for there enviroment than others,add to that a a well practiced and understanding exponent of that art,give him/her plenty of experience and watch him soar.

[Aikia]

I understand where your coming from Aikia but belive that some arts are already more functional for there enviroment than others,add to that a a well practiced and understanding exponent of that art,give him/her plenty of experience and watch him soar.

Do you understand the potential of delivery and the limitation of technique?
That's what I was talking about.

[fire cobra]

Do you understand the potential of delivery and the limitation of technique?
That's what I was talking about.

Yes I do,as I said I understand where your coming from.