evasion for defense

[azrael]

hi,

I was wondering what you guys thought of the use of boxing style evasions in a street situation (ie slip and hit). Do u think wing chun style parries or destructions (as in PFS) are better suited to street situations?

Az

[jester700]

I think boxing evasions are VERY effective. Quick, mostly natural, and leaves you in a good position for countering. The only thing is to train with an eye toward defending stuff that boxing doesn't address: kicking, weapons, etc.

Watch low line & snap kicks - boxers don't need to worry about them, but you do. Watch the ranges - boxers don't worry about being tackled or having to evade against weapons, but you might.

But working on these things in addition to basic boxing movement would be a good basis for your defense.

[gungfuhero]

I think that whether or not it is a sneak attack would be the factor on which is more appropriate between evasions and wing chun style blocking/parrying. Evasion is more suited for when you know that someone is about to punch you instead of them being a jerk and might sucker punch you. Each is a great method of defense, they just have specific places in combat.

just my $0.02

[sikal]

Originally posted by jester700
I think boxing evasions are VERY effective. Quick, mostly natural, and leaves you in a good position for countering. The only thing is to train with an eye toward defending stuff that boxing doesn't address: kicking, weapons, etc.

Watch low line & snap kicks - boxers don't need to worry about them, but you do. Watch the ranges - boxers don't worry about being tackled or having to evade against weapons, but you might.

But working on these things in addition to basic boxing movement would be a good basis for your defense.

Good points. An addendum: When bobbing under a hook, watch for knees. When slipping a punch, cover with your non-punching hand (i.e.: check his arm) so he doesn't clip you with his elbow.

However, I think all this should be trained *in addition* to the parries and destructions from WC & FMA which are also very good.

Regards, Mike

[quietanswer]

keep in mind, as well, that you can slip and do a parry/destruction simultaneously. I was taught to parry while slipping by a boxing coach, then later a jkd instructor added the elbow destruction..

[Chad W. Getz]

Or punching his thigh while slipping under his punch...bob n weave(?)not a boxer, not sure of the terms...

[Chad W. Getz]

This type of strategy works fairly well against leg shots stickfighting. Move the leg back and hit the hand or head.

[Bau13]

PFS destructions are very simple and very effective

Unless your opponent really wants to box with you...only then would boxing style evasions be useful..bear in mind that bobbing and weaving etc leaves you open to alot of other things...so only use them if your opponent is a "puncher"

I prefer destructions because youre gonna make your opponent think twice about hitting you again after you break his hand with your elbow ...hell , it might even end the fight...

Then again...too many variables on the street..so..Whatever types of evasions you know...I hope you are able to use em!!
Especially if three other guys jump in to get you...I'd say the best evasion is to run!!!

[jester700]

I agree with the addition of the stuff you guys mention to a boxing base. But remember that boxers don't break stuff down to individual components when fighting any more than FMAists, TKDists, or Judoka do. That is, a boxer isn't looking to evade a lot; he's looking for a counterpunch.

Maybe his "destruction" has a different structure than a FMAist, but it's there, and it's been trained a million times. The fact that the structure is simple allows it to be trained in more quickly (and with greater repetition).

You gotta have great timing to hit that elbow to hand destruction with any regularity in a non controlled situation, IMO. I sure ain't there...

[sikal]

Originally posted by jester700
You gotta have great timing to hit that elbow to hand destruction with any regularity in a non controlled situation, IMO. I sure ain't there...

It would sure seem that way, wouldn't it? But it's really not as difficult as it seems. If you can successfully parry a punch, then you can often guide it to your elbow.

If you're trying to hit their hand with your elbow, then yes, that's difficult. If you simply guide their hand to your elbow, that's much easier. It's no different than slapping your own elbow ... their hand just happens to be between your hand and elbow.

Regards, Mike

[jester700]

My difficulty isn't getting my hand to my own elbow, or parrying the opponent's hand. It's distancing. With the other guntings there's more "fudge factor" in terms of distance - with an inward gunting, for example, I can hit a few different nerves/muscles/etc., and I can vary my elbow angle and striking tool easily, all of which vary distance.

But with the elbow, my upper arm length is fixed. So distance varies only with my body and shoulder position. This is what I'm running into - it's tough for me to get my elbow in the right spot in time.

So for me, the other guntings are easier, flow better into other techniques, and just generally make more sense. As a practical guy, I like easy... ;-)

Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind if I meet someone who can make this work well in real time, and can give me a clue as to how I could as well...

[quietanswer]

you know the bob and weave chad.. just maybe not under that particular name... it's the basic boxing evasion for a hook punch.. you bend at the knees to lower your head below the height of the horizontal attack line, then make a slight side step to take your body under the punch (in the direction it came from).. this movement includes a slight sideways sway so that your head makes a complete circle back to the start position.

you may have seen boxers practice it under a rope stretched at head height across the gym.. working it with shadowboxing/counterpunching..


Sikal: if i bob and weave with a straight back, bobbing from the knees alone with no "bend over" to it, am I still so open to knees? we haven't been training knees in our sparring yet...

[sikal]

Originally posted by jester700
My difficulty isn't getting my hand to my own elbow, or parrying the opponent's hand. It's distancing. With the other guntings there's more "fudge factor" in terms of distance - with an inward gunting, for example, I can hit a few different nerves/muscles/etc., and I can vary my elbow angle and striking tool easily, all of which vary distance.

But with the elbow, my upper arm length is fixed. So distance varies only with my body and shoulder position. This is what I'm running into - it's tough for me to get my elbow in the right spot in time.

So for me, the other guntings are easier, flow better into other techniques, and just generally make more sense. As a practical guy, I like easy... ;-)

Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind if I meet someone who can make this work well in real time, and can give me a clue as to how I could as well...

It's hard to discuss in this type of medium. The best thing I can suggest (and the exercise that really cemented this idea for me) is to have your training partner put on gloves (we used street hockey gloves, but other types might work) and have him throw punches. Try to parry his hand into your elbow. Use vertical, horizontal, diagonal down, and diagonal up elbows. Will it always be available? No. If your hands are hanging straight down at your sides when the guy swings, then a more standard variation of the gunting is likely going to be more appropriate. If, however, you're eating a sandwich or adjusting your glasses (i.e.: your hand is near your face and your elbow is already up) when the guy swings, then the elbow might be a better option.

Play with it and try to find it. When you find it, it's very useful. Through the exercise I described above, my partner and I got to the point that we could pull it off, at speed, about 80% of the time ... and the other 20%, we were still left in a good position (i.e.: able to avoid getting tagged immediately and still land follow ups), even if we didn't get the destruction.

Regards, Mike

[sikal]

Originally posted by quietanswer
Sikal: if i bob and weave with a straight back, bobbing from the knees alone with no "bend over" to it, am I still so open to knees? we haven't been training knees in our sparring yet...

This will help, of course. So will good timing and quick execution. The knee is still something to be aware of. Another possibility is a kick either to your face or to the inside of your knee. All this depends on your proximity to them and, again, your timing and speed of execution. A kick to the inside of the knee probably won't cause immediate problems (i.e.: it probably won't hurt a lot in and of itself in this particular instance because they won't get a lot of power from it) ... but it will disrupt your balance and while you try to adjust your balance, they may have time to land a couple of nasty blows or at the very least zone out so you have to reorient on them.

There are a lot of variables. The thing I was trying to point out is that when you do these outside of a boxing ring, you have to remember that straight boxing doesn't take some things into account because they're not legal in boxing. The techniques (i.e.: bob & weave, slip, etc.) are completely valid and useful ... but may require modification or a higher degree of awareness when used outside of the stright boxing context.

Regards, Mike

[Bau13]

yeah...the main thing with elbow destructions is that your hands have to be up high kinda like a Thai boxer...I was doing the same punching drill with a friend and at first i had a traditional boxing stance..I found that putting my elbow up was a little slow with this stance...then I tried it with a "thai" stance pulling my elbow up was easy...I was pulling off the destruction almost at will..
I then asked my friend if he was easing up and he said No!
He was REALLY trying to hit me!

Try the destruction drill with some 8-16oz boxing gloves...its fun!