self defense vs fighting

[double ouch]

Do you guys see any major differences in training for someone who wants to learn self defense vs. someone who wants to be a good fighter?
Scenario training and multiple opponent training may come into play more for someone interested in self defense.
The fighter might try more ring arts. Anything else?

[quietanswer]

your definition of the two terms.

I don't know any ring/sport fighters/boxers/grapplers who aren't interested on some level in developing street-self defense, but there are plenty of "self defense/realistic combat training" people who don't care at all about the sport aspect.

generally, sport type martial arts (western boxing, competition directed judo, etc) have rules to keep the game interesting, relatively safe, and active (judo has limited times on groundfighting if the opponents don't change positions frequently enough, then they are pulled back to standing fighting by the ref.. boxing doesn't permit punches anywhere except the from of the torso and the front/sides of the head).

Lots of defense-minded individuals tend to sneer at this for it's lack of 'aliveness' or 'realism' or 'chaos'. they have a strong point.

however, these forms of fighting can be very useful for trianing, as it can allow you to develop certain aspects of sensitivity and technique without damaging self or training partners.. it also allows for you to go "all out".. an example of this is that judo only allows arm locks and chokes, no small joint locks.. they claim "small joints break too easy in the heat of competition with a resisting opponent".. imo this is both true and crap... i'm more middle road. train sometimes with small joint locks, with some of your energy extended towards taking care of your partner while doing so.. train other times with no small joint locks soyou can beat the hell out of each other and train your stamina/aggresiveness/etc.

any other thoughts?

[Underdog]

I think that the real difference between fighting sports, even the extreme ones and self defence (or streetfighting) is twofold:

1. The real goal of fighting sports is winning a competition under some sort of riles; the better one expresses himself inside the boudaries of rules, the better chances has to win. The mental aspect is focused mainly of the opponent strategy and how to deal with someone attributes (how to resist pain, fatigue etc.)

The goal of self defense is to preserve someone physical and mental integrity under harmful circumstances; the real goal is to survive unscathed or minimally injured from some sort of NON CONTROLLABLE and UNPREDICTABLE environment. Mental attributes and the ability to think quickly under pressure plays a crucial role in that.

2. The main concerns in fighting sports are TECHNICAL ones, and technique and conditioning plays the main role

In self defence you have a SITUATIONAL environment to deal.

Some example:

I'm confronted by the usual street punk that ask me for money; what to do?

1. I attack him, beat him to crap; and later I must grow two eyes on my back to guard against his gang.

2. I give him the money, knowing that next time he will knock at my shop asking for more.

3. I decide to not give him money, nor beat him; but I shot him with my glock, barely missing him...(aim at the ground); next day the word is spreading that I'm searching for him and his family....And when I met him we do a mutual agreement of ignore each other.


Really; streetfighting and self defence sometimes is a matter of bluffing, woofing, chasing and avoiding, sometimes for a punch you start a faida.

Just my two cents.

[Chad W. Getz]

There is a thread titled "Dueling or Self-Defense". It is a thread from here before the late Y2K problems(no forum). It is at about that time that I first met underdog and quietanswer. We seem to usually end up on the smae threads, ey. Anyway just go to http://www.fullcontacthi.com and check out the message board, there is also some post from Eskrima Digest on the board about the same subject over there.

[quietanswer]

and take the time to watch some of the vid's on fullcontacthi.com.. it's worthwhile to hear what men REALLY sound like while being badly beaten up with a stick.. i mean, I sat here and giggled (i have a dark humor, i guess) myself til i peed.. i had to replay them again and again to watch the techniques..but also to hear the audio (on those that have it) cause the groans/yells/augh's are just DAMNED funny.. Television doesn't do a good job of representing people in pain, i've decided.

augh..ah..aahhh..

hah. damned funny.

[robert moses]

I think there is a huge difference.

Think about it. To fight, you have to learn to close the distance. For self defense, you want to put as much distance between you and the attacker as possible.


With self defense, there is no concept of saving energy for later rounds, or hoping your opponent will tire out (after 10 minutes in the guard or punch himself out after 3 rounds). You have to go all out and finish it as fast as you can.

[Chad W. Getz]

Originally posted by robert moses
You have to go all out and finish it as fast as you can.

Yup, I think that is one of the few things that "duelling" doesn't train.

[Chad W. Getz]

Originally posted by quietanswer
and take the time to watch some of the vid's on fullcontacthi.com.. it's worthwhile to hear what men REALLY sound like while being badly beaten up with a stick..

cause the groans/yells/augh's are just DAMNED funny..

augh..ah..aahhh..

I suppose you are talking about "Unleashing the Beast" in particular?.?. Theres a funny story to that footage. One that changed my mind about the inside deflection and kind of supports the fact that duelling can help self-defense abilities.

The original fight revolved around Blue(the guy with the blue tank top) chasing around Gray(the guy in the gray shirt...duh!). Anyway, time was called, and Blue asked Gray if he wanted to continue for another two minutes. Gray said no, Blue talked him into 30 secs, and so Gray agreed. Next Gray rushed Blue off guard before any stick taps and what you see is the footage after the initial charge. The growling is not the guy getting hit. There is an exchange here of about 8 punyos and 3 forehand-abanico type witiks, a punch, some headbutts, and a thrust about to be delivered to the face before gray taps(which is funny in itself once you see it). And of course, Stuart laughing in the background.

[Edited by Chad W. Getz on 10-25-2000 at 07:00 PM]

[quietanswer]

that's stuart laughing? I love that, I truly love that. And knowing who the laughing joker is makes it even better.. it's great to see a guy getting beat up, to be laughing myself, and hear someone else can't control his own mirth as well..

[thekuntawman]

i think you have to be a good fighter to be effective at self defense.

fighters have heart and the mental ability to kill or injure somebody. no self defense technique will work if you are scared or you are too nice to put your fingers in somebody eyes. there is no such thing as only escaping from an attacker unless you can run when that guy is trying to pound you in the head, he will only stop when your pencil is sticking in his brain by his nose or his ears. the more a student fights, and if he has been in enough fights that there is no hesitation to strike him enough to make a bruise or blood, even if this is your training partner or friend, then you will be able to do what we call "action without thinking" in combat. a man is only fooling the student when he is teaching "self defense" techniques and there is small amounts of fighting an no competition. this person has not learn the higher levels of defense/survival on the street, which begins with "you must be willing to do more to the attacker than he plans to do to you". in order to have this you must be 1.experienced 2.mean 3.brave and 4.determined not to get hurt. we can laugh at sports competition all we want, but they know more about getting hit and how to inflict pain than all the "paper tigers" in the world. you must fight to be effective on the street.