heavy Bag training...

[Jerik]

Ok guys, i dont want to open a Big discussion, just an oppinion, which i wanna know if i think right.

Its about the Heavy Bag training and Martial Art.

I personaly (little JKD, TKD) dont ever kicked a Heavy Bag, but i dont think its a big deal after all, because if i face up with some "Human" bad guy i dunno if i really want to hit him, remember, high kicks, or even stomps to the Body can do critical injuries, and im someone who feels a diffrence between TV or brutal Beat em up games and Real life. A Human is a Human with his own body, feelings, personality... and it can easily be destroyed hitting someone into invalid. I know storys about good Fighters in Boxing, Karate and some others who never forgive themself because they hit some guys invalid while being drunk on the street, they never came back into their old shape, and most of them stopped their career seeing what they are able to do and what they have done.

So why beating, punching, kicking a heavy bag, you will never ever hit a human this hard, its more the fast punches and blocks which we shall use, those can hurt, but not destroy.

A Martial Artist who kills doesen´t understand his MA, doesen´t understand any MA.
MA don´t mean to kill, it means (today) to protect those we love, not to kill those we hate.

[sikal]

Originally posted by Jerik
Ok guys, i dont want to open a Big discussion, just an oppinion, which i wanna know if i think right.

Its about the Heavy Bag training and Martial Art.

I personaly (little JKD, TKD) dont ever kicked a Heavy Bag, but i dont think its a big deal after all, because if i face up with some "Human" bad guy i dunno if i really want to hit him, remember, high kicks, or even stomps to the Body can do critical injuries, and im someone who feels a diffrence between TV or brutal Beat em up games and Real life. A Human is a Human with his own body, feelings, personality... and it can easily be destroyed hitting someone into invalid. I know storys about good Fighters in Boxing, Karate and some others who never forgive themself because they hit some guys invalid while being drunk on the street, they never came back into their old shape, and most of them stopped their career seeing what they are able to do and what they have done.

So why beating, punching, kicking a heavy bag, you will never ever hit a human this hard, its more the fast punches and blocks which we shall use, those can hurt, but not destroy.

A Martial Artist who kills doesen´t understand his MA, doesen´t understand any MA.
MA don´t mean to kill, it means (today) to protect those we love, not to kill those we hate.

The heavy bag can be used to develop many things aside from power. You can use it to develop speed, accuracy, flow, etc ... and all the while you're striking without worry of slipping up and breaking your uke's nose.

Mike

[J.K.]

"So why beating, punching, kicking a heavy bag, you will never ever hit a human this hard, its more the fast punches and blocks which we shall use, those can hurt, but not destroy.

A Martial Artist who kills doesen´t understand his MA, doesen´t understand any MA.
MA don´t mean to kill, it means (today) to protect those we love, not to kill those we hate"

1st - if I am in a serious street fight where my life is threatened I - my intention will be to kill my aggressor with brutal force. Its about self preservation...When I punch some one I punch them as hard as i possibly can - take them out lickady split.

Your Aikido background is leading you a stray. Don't think that all those fancy moves will protect you - there is a lot of deception in that art. That is to say - its a complicated system that is hard to pull off. Students of aikido are fooled by the demonstrations of this art - you see 18 people attacking the teacher and everyone goes flying - its a crock. Anyways - sorry to bash your art - but wake up. Your studying self defense - so time you must destroy your opponent to preserve your self. "Hate your enemy with a whole heart - if a man smites you one cheek then smash him on the other - for self preservation is the highest law - he who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog...."(Anton Levay)

[JKDMAN]

My best advice is this: Do not let anyone tell you aikido is wrong or right. Do not buy "the man who turns the other cheek".. from levay. Turning the other cheek is the higher moral road true and I advocatte it fully, but I will break someone's nose or shin to safeguard my family. I have been in numerous street altercations and have never had to use "extreme force." Do whatever your heart tells you in each situation, but train to be able to do anything you must. Heavy bag work as was said earlier can develop many traits besides power, but never underestimate power. I have always been told This: "If you are unfraid to kill your opponent, but add wisdom then you may never have to." Illustration, How many times have you tried to not break something or step on someone's toes in a crowded area, or anything and in all your struggle to be so careful, you acheive the very thing you tried to avoid. Now in a situation in which you are not concerned of anything then nothing happens. Like wise if you go in to a fight with the understanding you or they may not come out, then your mind which is usually full of panic and worry for your opponent, is free to see an opportunity to ecaspe that you may have missed. Lay your life before your opponent and you may see a way to save yours and if you are blessed maybe and most probably both. Use aikido when possible, but realize that the harmony they strive to maintain does not mean never hurt your attacker. To truly acheive the harmony of nature, when talking fails, we must make sure the attacker understands that they are in the wrong. If you must kick and do damage then veiw it this way: I did what I had to do to stay safe and they are still alive. Mayhaps while recovering they will reflect and grow as a person, realizing violence is wrong. Train hard so you can fight hard. Train those Kicks and nerve hits, etc. But also while hitting the heavy bag train your mind and feed your soul to maintain the harmony and balance that aikido stresses.

[J.K.]

jkdman - you have missed my point - self defense isn't something you choose. If your in a comprimised situation then you need to do whatever you need to do to stay alive. I don't advocate fighting just for fighting - if you are truely in a situation when your are being attacked then you need to use extreme force. IF you take your opponent lightly and have compassion for him then you haven't really learned anything.

What extent have your street encounter been - some one calling you a name and you get into a childish playground fight...Have you ever been in a situation where you and your wife/girlfriend/child have been approached by someone or multiple persons who wishes to do you and your family harm? In that type of situation, do you turn the other cheek and risk having your wife rapped before you eyes, your child's throat slit, your girlfriend stabbed...I'm not some punk who starts fight for no reason.

I always advocate turning the other cheek when the situation presents itself. However, in my last statement, I wasn't referring to this type of situation. I was referring to a life threating situation where you have no choice. There is a difference. It seems that you have missed a key element in your training. You need to learn how to harness your animal spirit. Your animal spirit is what keeps you alive in a multi-man attack. There is a common misconception that many martial artist miss - they see movies where a guy knows some form of martial arts and takes on 5 people with out getting a scratch - its a crock. If your under a multiman attack you better be prepared to fight for your life.

All your philisophical dialog is great and if that brings you some sort of enlightment - godbless. But when its reality time you can quote all the philosphers you want - but its not going to save your life.

One major problem with people that study martial arts is that try to make MA into something esoteric - like its magic. I belive this is a misconception that came about from the movies and people who haven't really studied the physical aspects of their training. Insted, they focus on philosphies and expect that to save them in a defensive situation. Its what I refer to as the grasshopper complex. Philosphy is great for balancing your life/setting goals/ analysing how to make yourself a better person, ect... But selfdefense comes from hard training, conditioning, and repetition.

So go ahead and turn the other cheek and watch your love ones be taking advantage of and harmed - that your progative. I will stick with reality - and god forbid if I am presented with such an awful situation - i will be prepared to do what ever it takes to survive.

You where right about me putting down akido - Its my opionion - take it or leave..

[JKDMAN]

J.K.

I agree if you need to kill to safeguard your loved ones do it. If you re-read my post i say several times being willing to do what you have to so that you can see you way out. One must be willing willing to kill in self-preservation before one can ever examine ways not too. So basically we were saying the same thing.

[PentjackSilat]

When threatened, walk away. If you can not walk away, run away. If you can not run away, fly away. If you can not fly away, then for God's sake tear the heart from their chest and pity the fool who gave you no choice!

[Bau]

nice one PentjackSilat....I couldn't agree with you more...well...maybe not about the heart tearing thing..but yeah I get the idea!

[JKDMAN]

Originally posted by PentjackSilat
[b]When threatened, walk away. If you can not walk away, run away. If you can not run away, fly away. If you can not fly away, then for God's sake tear the heart from their chest and pity the fool who gave you no choice!

Nicely said. Spoken with wisdom and compassion. Congrats

[Ryan G]

Originally Posted by J.K.

"So why beating, punching, kicking a heavy bag, you will never ever hit a human this hard, its more the fast punches and blocks which we shall use, those can hurt, but not destroy.

A Martial Artist who kills doesen´t understand his MA, doesen´t understand any MA.
MA don´t mean to kill, it means (today) to protect those we love, not to kill those we hate"

1st - if I am in a serious street fight where my life is threatened I - my intention will be to kill my aggressor with brutal force. Its about self preservation...When I punch some one I punch them as hard as i possibly can - take them out lickady split.

Your Aikido background is leading you a stray. Don't think that all those fancy moves will protect you - there is a lot of deception in that art. That is to say - its a complicated system that is hard to pull off. Students of aikido are fooled by the demonstrations of this art - you see 18 people attacking the teacher and everyone goes flying - its a crock. Anyways - sorry to bash your art - but wake up. Your studying self defense - so time you must destroy your opponent to preserve your self. "Hate your enemy with a whole heart - if a man smites you one cheek then smash him on the other - for self preservation is the highest law - he who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog...."(Anton Levay)

anton levay is a satanist!!!
u evil evil man!
\m/\m/
but i fully agree with u

[Freedom]

So....Anyway....Back to heavy bag training. I find that it helps with my boxing form aswell. Oh and btw, turn your other cheek, and if they hit that one too its your own fault.

[Sagacious Lu]

Damn, this thread has some whiskers on it.

[Patrick G.]

Originally Posted by Jerik

Ok guys, i dont want to open a Big discussion, just an oppinion, which i wanna know if i think right.

Its about the Heavy Bag training and Martial Art.

I personaly (little JKD, TKD) dont ever kicked a Heavy Bag, but i dont think its a big deal after all, because if i face up with some "Human" bad guy i dunno if i really want to hit him, remember, high kicks, or even stomps to the Body can do critical injuries, and im someone who feels a diffrence between TV or brutal Beat em up games and Real life. A Human is a Human with his own body, feelings, personality... and it can easily be destroyed hitting someone into invalid. I know storys about good Fighters in Boxing, Karate and some others who never forgive themself because they hit some guys invalid while being drunk on the street, they never came back into their old shape, and most of them stopped their career seeing what they are able to do and what they have done.

So why beating, punching, kicking a heavy bag, you will never ever hit a human this hard, its more the fast punches and blocks which we shall use, those can hurt, but not destroy.

A Martial Artist who kills doesen´t understand his MA, doesen´t understand any MA.
MA don´t mean to kill, it means (today) to protect those we love, not to kill those we hate.

Forgive me if I'm being too blunt when I say this, and I will try and say it as best I can without hurting your feelings, but...

If you serously believe what you are saying, you are seriously, and tragically lost...i'm sorry man, but you sound like you've been brainwashed in ideology...

Martial arts were created for self defense....nothing less, but to kill...in times of crisis, this was exactly what it was used for...to kill!!..when times were not so tough, it was "watered" down, because the need to kill was not there anymore...

if u honestly practice ANY martial art with the notion in your mind that you cannot and will not EVER hurt or possibly kill someone if you absolutley have to, then you my friend are not a marial artist..you are a pretender...a cheerleader...plain and simple...

One of the first questions my instructor asks any of his potential students is, "would you kill someone"...and with good reason...because, when the shit hits the fan, you better handle your business...

underestimation can be your worst enemy...it can even get YOU killed...

[aseepish]

And misunderstimation can get you elected to the office of President of the United States of America.

[Ryan G]

i believe that A sharp killer instinct can make u an instant weapon.