Firearm training and JKD

[Patrick G.]

I've broken my JKD into 2 main categories for modernization purposes: unarmed combat and armed, concealed weapon combat...
1.) unarmed- a fairly stripped down, modernized version of JKD.
2.) armed- concealed weapon carry and the use of the two main modern day weapons: the firearm and the knife.

Realistically, the modern day martial artist should embrace and train with modern day weapons. Most martial artists shy away from firearm training, but it should be an essential part of your martial art, and if possible, legal concealed carry...

Now I know I may catch alot of flack for stating this, but i'm just being real...we live in a different time...and, outside of high school and/or adolescence, you are far less likely to be attacked by or challenged by someone empty handed...

SO, with that been said, how many of you guys actually practice tactical firearm fighting as a supplement and real aspect of your empty handed training?

[Sean J]

I actually had years and years of firearms training behind me before I had the chance of getting into martial arts.

For a while I did both but it became more and more of unarmed, knife, stick and even archery.

[Kingston]

were i train we train with knives for a part of every class. all improvised attacks...blah blah blah, thats not the point.

so far we have not done gun defence/disarm.

It doesn't bother me to much (i live in canada, shooting are relativly low anyway)

BUT MOST IMPORTANT, is the fact of our class schedual, there are 7 classes a weak, but not many (if anyone) can make it to all of them. Working against a gun is much harder then a knife, to do anything about it you have to be close to the attacker... if your outside of 5 feet aint much you can do i dont care how skilled, without moving closer, bad idea in my opinion. People need the time, and mindset to start gun dissarm.

It is important for the "serious" self defence practitioner to learn it eventualy, but i think it should be the last things on the list of "techniques" you learn in your training.

If you train people to defend against a gun, most likely they will have some confidence against guns...(if the programs good) I dont care how many times you say "now only use this as a LAST POSSIBLE resort" people want to be heros, you give em the tools they will use em.....the fact is when people start trying to fight the guy with a gun, instead of givin up there wallet, THATS when people get shot. Note: another way is if the defender has a gun...no good can come from that.

just my two cents

[eXcessiveForce]

actually, studies have been shown that an attacker can close the distance of 32 ft on most police officer before they could draw their gun and fire. out of one hundred officers only 2 got off a shot. Both fired from their backs and through the holster.

but it is definately easier to handle a gun when you are closer.


just food for thought.

[Patrick G.]

Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
actually, studies have been shown that an attacker can close the distance of 32 ft on most police officer before they could draw their gun and fire. out of one hundred officers only 2 got off a shot. Both fired from their backs and through the holster.

but it is definately easier to handle a gun when you are closer.


just food for thought.

lol...i've heard of the study in my CCW class where an attacker can close a distance of (and don't quote me on this, i don't exactly remember the times) 23 feet in less than 3 sec. but i doubt that any human can run a distance of 32 feet in the .5 sec. it takes me to draw my gun (concealed, under my shit, in a Kydex holster, BTW) and fire...

[ryanhall]

Patrick,

lol...i've heard of the study in my CCW class where an attacker can close a distance of (and don't quote me on this, i don't exactly remember the times) 23 feet in less than 3 sec. but i doubt that any human can run a distance of 32 feet in the .5 sec. it takes me to draw my gun (concealed, under my shit, in a Kydex holster, BTW) and fire...

Actually, it's around 1.5 seconds that they cover the distance (if my memory serves me correctly). Most people cannot draw from concealment and fire in less than two seconds. The point is, that many LEOs are taught to keep a knife-wielding assailant at greater than 20 feet for a reason--you need time. I would be extremely impressed if you could draw from concealment, aim, and fire accurately in .5 seconds--you would be rare. If you have ever had to discharge a firearm under pressure (a real firefight or with someone rushing you with a blade) you will know that fine-motor aim takes a serious hit when adrenaline kicks in. This alone is an arguement for point shooting, but I won't go into that right now. Read about the one where the cop chases a gangbanger up onto a 8x5 foot balcony, they both empty their magazines, and they both miss EVERY time? Adrenaline at work.

If a person is determined to get to you and kill you, anything but a central nervous system shot or a clean head shot will not get the job done. The force of your bullet(s) will probably not be sufficient to stop them from reaching you if they have any kind of momentum. They'll die, but not before taking your head off your shoulders. The situation always varies from person to person, but do not underestimate the amount of damage the human body can sustain and still keep going. On the same idea, don't be so sure that everything will work out when the sh!t hits the fan--it probably won't. Accidents happen all the time, no matter who you are.

[RBFC]

The concept of a "safe minimum distance" for drawing your weapon before a charging attacker can reach you is known as the Tueller rule. It's named after the LEO who researched this topic, and I believe the distance decided upon was 21 feet. I believe the time required for an aggressive attacker to cover that distance was about 2 sec.

Lee

[Kingston]

Originally posted by ryanhall


If you have ever had to discharge a firearm under pressure (a real firefight or with someone rushing you with a blade) you will know that fine-motor aim takes a serious hit when adrenaline kicks in.

I have a story wich kind of fits into this category.
(I was at a kendo camp, there was this guy who worked secerity, anyway he grew up "on the mean streets" he told us a story about this event he witnessed, or heard, im not sure)

Not sure where this happened...this gangbanger was going to shoot these guys, he walked right up to these three people sitting on the steps to there house, unloaded his gun on them......MISSED every shot, those three guys proceded to kick the living SH$T out of the attacker, when the ambulence came he said they thought it was a hit and run care accident! the attacker could not have been more then 10 feet from the "victims".

also i was watching the biography of some old time mobster, his enemies contracted a hit on him...so the hitman ambushed him on the street, unloaded his tomy gun at 20 feet, only hit the guy once in the hand. lol and this was from a "profesional".

[ryanhall]

The concept of a "safe minimum distance" for drawing your weapon before a charging attacker can reach you is known as the Tueller rule. It's named after the LEO who researched this topic, and I believe the distance decided upon was 21 feet. I believe the time required for an aggressive attacker to cover that distance was about 2 sec.

Thanks for the correct, Lee.

[eXcessiveForce]

A story that I used when teaching it ain't over till it's over is of a woman who was take hostage on an airplane. She was brought to the door of the plane, a 44 or 45 (i forget exactly) it was pressed to her head and fired. and she was thrown out of the plane on to the pavement. she tried to get up and was shot in the head again. She tried to get up and bam, one more in the head. By the end of it she was shot 14 times in the head. She decided to play dead. and they closed the airplane door. She then got up an ran. She was treated and lived. Today she looks fairly normal but she does have some slight speak problems.


It is amazing what the body can take. But I'd say she was more blessed than lucky.

It just amazes me how many people think of the one shot kill.

[robertlee]

Have a gun WHY do jkd. To pull a gun and not just fire it is bull////. And to attack a gun at a distance is not real. Up close and your life depends on tthat attack yes maybe. The only reason you may be still alive defending at a distance is because the person with the gun did not really want to shoot you. After all the gun is why the M/A took a back seat over one hundred years ago.A person that is willing to shoot you will do this if you provoke him. Now to train as a secondary follow up to defensive tactics. such law enforcemant , personal body guard or personal safety. That is ok. Just like knife fighting any time some else has the weapon you are at a disadvantage. thats it. YOU are safer perhaps aginst the knife but will still probably get cut. Training helps but the fight wont be like training that guy wants to do some damage . I like knife training and can do some fare things with and aginst the knife. But in a real fight I might be as lucky to get it off. That I wont know until it happens. Disarm and control of the gun is an up close use and has worked and has not worked. The average every day person is less likely to pull and kill with a gun. This creates a sector that is not covered. FEAR TO DO. Tactical defence training has a purpose for those who have to depend on that need . People have died that took knife training and relied to much on the drills on how to protect. Learn to fight well with your body tools first and then weapons will be just an extintion to what you can do. You will do better. I may be wrong But I think a bullet will stop any m/a at ten feet and that bullet does not have to have a blackbelt. it can be a 8 year old kid.

[Patrick G.]

Projectile caliber has a lot to do with stopping power...it's now widely known and pretty much taken that anything less than a 9mm will not do the job quickly enough to drop an attacker...that's why i carry a .40

the larger the bullet, the more energy it will pack, and consequently the harder it will hit the target...we're not talking .22, BB gun sized bullets here... we're talking hollow point, .40 S&W...

why study JKD and carry a gun? well, ask a ninja why he carries a sword...ask a samurai why he carries one as well...or a Kendo artist...the fact is, many martial arts have revolved around weapons...at the time, when the martial art was created, there were either no firearms in existence, or it was simpley not practical..

i consider my firearm my "sword"...i started studying JKD, and martial arts in general, long before i even thought about firearms...started my endeavor in JKD about 7 years ago...karate much earlier, about the age of 7....u simply cannot rule out the possibility of the need for empty handed combat techniques, even if you do carry a firearm...that's why i've gone about integrating my firearms training into my JKD..becuase it IS now an essential part of it...

if you are gonna legally carry a firearm, there is one essential element that must be taken into account, same as in JKD...PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE! there is no way i would miss a shot from 10 ft! i make it a habit to hit the range at least once a week to practice..i practice my draw from concealment, combined with close-range JKD techniques, etc... because you know what? practice makes permanence...

Thanks for all the comments guys

ohh, and Ryanhall, I CAN draw from complete concealment, one-handed shirt over holster and gun, in .5 sec..OK, actually between .50 and 1 sec..

[RBFC]

But can you draw under the stress of a standing grappling situation with a
completely uncooperative bad guy? Put on a little protective gear and wear a red gun/blue gun simulator in your preferred holster. Try out a few scenarios where you have to draw under pressure, including some where the bad guy knows you're trying to draw and attempts to prevent you or take your weapon. These situations are far more common than you might think, and will open your eyes to the reality of producing a weapon during a confrontation.

Then, give it a try when you have been shoved to the ground, both with bad guy on top and with bad guy standing above you.

It's not very likely that a civilian will have the benefit of 20 feet or more when called upon to defend him/herself with a weapon. Most attacks take place in the range where your JKD CQB skills can be used to create the space/time to present a weapon. Just be as sure as you can that the methods you believe will work for you are tested in realistic drills.

Lee

[Patrick G.]

Originally posted by RBFC
But can you draw under the stress of a standing grappling situation with a
completely uncooperative bad guy? Put on a little protective gear and wear a red gun/blue gun simulator in your preferred holster. Try out a few scenarios where you have to draw under pressure, including some where the bad guy knows you're trying to draw and attempts to prevent you or take your weapon. These situations are far more common than you might think, and will open your eyes to the reality of producing a weapon during a confrontation.

Then, give it a try when you have been shoved to the ground, both with bad guy on top and with bad guy standing above you.

It's not very likely that a civilian will have the benefit of 20 feet or more when called upon to defend him/herself with a weapon. Most attacks take place in the range where your JKD CQB skills can be used to create the space/time to present a weapon. Just be as sure as you can that the methods you believe will work for you are tested in realistic drills.

Lee

ohh yes sir...i agree with you completely....that's why i say it's very important to integrate the two flawlessly...both JKD empty handed techniques, and firearms training...as u mentioned, there WILL be situations where u can't just "draw and shoot", but will need to utilize your natural tools in order to setup your preparation to draw or "steal-time" to draw...

also, the benifit, and advantage of concealed carry, is that your gun is concealed...from the public...any everyday person could not even notice my gun, becuase it's tucked neatly in an inside-the-pant holster just behind my hip, with my shirt hanging loosely over it...if i'm taking by suprise and have to resort to drawing my weapon, i make sure it is exactly the right moment...if i'm caught in some sort of hold and can't reach my weapon to quickly and safly draw it, guess what? it's empty hand combat time! or maybe even a sucker punch and a steal-time technique (i.e.running to create distance) and then proceeding to draw...

i see the mistake in training going both ways..i see people with CCL licenses training with there carry gun, but failiing to realize that they need to train in CQC techniques just as much...conversely, i see people training in martial arts for so-called "street-fighting", but what's the chances of getting into an empty-handed fight in this day and time?

[RBFC]

Good to hear, Patrick.

Now. let's take it one step further and imagine that the bad guy has begun to grapple with you and feels your gun, even though it's out of sight. We also need to practice weapon retention techniques and the ability to shoot safely within the arena of CQB. This may mean firing from the "thumb/pectoral" index, meaning that the gun is almost under your armpit. You may need to use the off-hand to create space from your atacker to set up the draw or to get the shot off. You should remember that you can shoot your other hand or arm in this type of situation, so train for instinctive safe-positioning of the off-hand/arm. You may present your weapon, at which point the bad guy grabs the muzzle and redirects it.

Once you have decided to escalate the level of force to "deadly weapon" status, your responsibility to train for the likely and "unlikely but possible" circumstances follows right along!

Lee