Bruce Lee a Neo Thai Boxer???

[Great Sage]

During my research of Bruce Lee, I ran across a qoute from Joe Lewis stating that Bruce Lee's JKD was slowing resembling Muay Thai, and that had he lived he'd be a Neo Thai Boxer... I wonder if this is true?

As far as I know, Bruce seemed like he was leaning towards grappling and minimalism near the end of his days... I'd like some feedback from people who know where Bruce Lee's art was heading...

[terry]

Please refer to the following URL:

http://www.thaiboxing.com/inosanto-interview.php

The 2nd half of this interview is devoted mostly to the relationship between Muay Thai and Jeet Kune Do.

Terry

[Great Sage]

Thanks Terry... Real informative article.

[robertlee]

To borrow a set of tools. Is not changing the whole . And to fit them in within an art is the blending of the set, not the seperate. i do not think that bruce was changing more towards the thai boxing. But mearly discovering what in the thai boxing he could use to add strenghs to his jkd. if something works and improves by adding or taking away then by all means study, use it and fit it in you training. Thats been the source to jkd any way.

[terry]

At the time I did that interview, Guro Inosanto was pretty clear that Bruce Lee's own exposure to Muay Thai was limited. Lee's analysis of Muay Thai would have been diferent if he had more opportunity to look in depth into Muay Thai.

At the time, Guro Dan got out own his copy of the "Tao of Jeet Kune Do". (This wasn't the one published by non-martial artist Linda Lee. Rather, this one was the one in Lee's own handwriting. It has open spaces, like a worksheet, into which you are supposed to put your own observations about an art. It was clearly a working draft in progress.) The page on Muay Thai had two sections devoted to it: things he liked and things he didn't like. Guro Dan pointed out the things he didn't like which included 3 things:

- Lack of good handwork
- John L. Sullivans of martial arts (meaning they lack good footwork)
- (Ack, I forget the 3rd)

Guro Inosanto pointed out to me that Lee's criticisms were partially incorrect and would have been updated had Lee had more exposure to Muay Thai. Well, Guro Dan went out and got more exposure to Muay Thai and realized that, depending on the camp, that Muay Thai can have extremely good hands and footwork.

In any case, Bruce Lee views do not seem to have been immutable or monolithic. Apparently, he changed his opinion frequently as he kept learning--sometimes on a weekly basis. Dan Inosanto continued that research and changed the structure of, among other things, the stance as he did so. He wound up with a more Muay Thai-like structure.

Of course, you don't need to take Bruce Lee's word for it, and you don't need to go through such a long process to find out about Muay Thai. Just buy yourself a discount airplane ticket to, for example, Fairtex in San Francisco, and ask to spar with the guys in the pros class. I'm sure it will be an informative experience. (*heh*)

Terry

[terry]

You know, up at the Oregon Thai Camp in 2000 I had the privilege of getting quite a bit of time hanging out with Guro Dan, so I got to follow up with him on my old interview one morning at the hotel over breakfast. I thought you guys may be interested. (What lies below is paraphrased because I didn't write or record the conversations well enough to make specific quotes of Guro Inosanto.)

Guro Dan said that when he first met Chai Sirisute that he was impressed because Ajarn Chai could knock him down by kicking his feet out from under him at will. When Guro Dan asked how he did this Ajarn Chai replied that he simply kicked him in the calves every time he put his feet together. Ajarn Chai's advice was: don't put your feet together. This caused Guro Dan to re-evaluate the use of some of the slide-and-step and push shuffle footwork as well as the basic stance in Jun Fan. Guro Dan experimented with using a more square Thai stance (Nyom, Guro Dan's 1st teacher in Muay Thai has an even more square stance than does Ajarn Chai.) and to avoid bringing his legs together.

The point was also re-inforced when Ajarn Chai brought Reggie, Don, James, Glen--basically the precursors to the old U.S. team--to the old Torrance Kali Academy for some sparring sessions. Not only could Ajarn Chai pick apart that push-shuffle footwork, but his students could too. Easily. The result was a couple of broken fibulas among some of Guro Dan's senior students.

The gist of the conversation was that Guro Dan felt the Thai structure worked better, so he changed it. I then followed up with him on how people reacted to him changing things. He went briefly through a catalog of what some people had said, and he looked kind of sad when he said it. (I think it is appropriate to keep this part of the conversation confidential.)

Basically, there are some people who think that Guro Dan was wrong or had no right to change things from the way he originally taught them. At that point, Guro Dan threw up his hands, visibly exasperated, and asked, "When"? The curriculum from April of 1967 was different than that of November, 1967, and that curriculum differed still from that taught in May of 1969, etc. The point was that SiJo Lee was always changing and wanted things to change and evolve. Guro Dan stated emphatically that the guys that had not learned Muay Thai were missing out. And the guys that had not learned Kali were missing out. And that the guys that had not learned Jujutsu were missing out. And on this point he pounded his fist into the table (which was mildly amusing to Col. Nattapong) and stated that the martial art MUST change.

Terry

[robertlee]

Terry you have made some good points. But I see that it was dan not Bruce that made the changes. It how ever does not matter as change is part of doing. And for Dan to do so has its reasons. Bruce may have very well followed up on more thai boxing aspects. But he did not at the time period. And left the jun fan/// jkd at the stage it was when he passed. Dan as a student took his further and created more the concepts of aprouch. Who ever in the end finds a working format to his jkd has that right. Your insight to the thai set of tools has value in seeing some weak points of the jkd foot work. But strong points of use still apply also. And Both to me have merit. Thanks for posting your comments it exposes a little more food for thought.

[gungfuhero]

From what I gather, what people refer to as the heavier thai boxing influence in Jun Fan today is SiFu Inosanto's affinity for the o'ou tek and its various applications. He said that in the 60's and 70's they used a lot of side kicks, but now he tends to use the round kick more. Occasionally he will cross reference thai boxing tactics and sometimes we work those in too, but it is clear that they are Thai boxing and not Bruce Lee's material. In my oppinion, a lot of JKD training today is divided into two parts, learning the arts seperately (Jun Fan among others) as well as also learning how they are interlinked. To be simple and direct, a fair degree of flow between your different tools must be achieved or else you may be a jun fan man at one point, a thai boxer at another and a BJJer the next instead of being formless.