Fancy Trapping

[Bri Thai]

One part of JKD seems to be what I would call "Fancy Trapping".

Now I've never been that convinced about trapping at the best of times, but can see how quickly pulling a guys hand away from his face can give you an opening to hit him etc.

But by "fancy trapping" I'm talking about those moves where the opponent comes in and "freezes" for an instant, whilst the defender then twists and turns his limbs about.

I have seen Larry Hartsell do it (on video) as well as a few others and had one main observation:-

I never, ever, ever saw anyone pull these kind of moves off in a real fight. Ever.

To me the "attacker" is merely trained to let the "defender" apply his twisty rubbishy move, and they would just not work. I have every regard for JKD and Kali, but don't you think that these moves are just nonsense?

[Kirves]

I never, ever, ever saw anyone pull these kind of moves off in a real fight. Ever.

But you have seen many try?

I have every regard for JKD and Kali, but don't you think that these moves are just nonsense?

Well, not really. I have tried some Wing Tsun and Kali trapping and my view is that usually the guy who doesn't know a bit about trapping loses in less than half a second. What you are seeing, the other guy freezing and then the static trap exchange takes play, only happens when both know trapping and the opponent tries to use it too. Usually a skilled trap artist, when fighting a non-skilled trap range fighter, will make arm contact, find an opening and close in instantly using elbows, knees, fists and headbutts. Just my observation.

[JIMI]

Well another clear cut example of Bri Thai's stupidity. My advice is for you to try it yourself on someone who has a skill for trapping, then come back with your results. I also ignorantly challenged trapping at one time and tried to prove an instructor wrong, i figured a typical jab, cross boxing move would do it. I threw them as hard as i could right at his face and i aimed to hit 6 inches past his head. Result was, in an instant i had both my arms trapped faster than the blink of an eye and i got slapped hard across the face. I am thinkin that a bitch slap may be what you need to teach you some respect for this art.

[sikal]

Originally posted by Bri Thai
One part of JKD seems to be what I would call "Fancy Trapping".

Now I've never been that convinced about trapping at the best of times, but can see how quickly pulling a guys hand away from his face can give you an opening to hit him etc.

But by "fancy trapping" I'm talking about those moves where the opponent comes in and "freezes" for an instant, whilst the defender then twists and turns his limbs about.

I have seen Larry Hartsell do it (on video) as well as a few others and had one main observation:-

I never, ever, ever saw anyone pull these kind of moves off in a real fight. Ever.

To me the "attacker" is merely trained to let the "defender" apply his twisty rubbishy move, and they would just not work. I have every regard for JKD and Kali, but don't you think that these moves are just nonsense?

Also, what you're seeing is a training model. Period. The trapping drills ingrain the options and the sensitivity into the body. From the outside, trapping, when properly applied, won't look like much. From the inside, though, it will feel like you're being smothered.

What really cracks me up is that most people who claim they don't trap do, in fact, trap. They do it all the time. They just don't call it that. A "clinch" in Muy Thai is a type of trap. A cross-body mount is a trap.

Here's a link to an article I've written about trap hands that will further explain my personal interpretation of trapping and, specifically, applying it.

http://wwwimpactacademy.com/articles...trap_hands.htm

Mike

[Kirves]

Originally posted by sikal
Also, what you're seeing is a training model.

Exactly, I forgot to mention that. Many people think that when Wing Tsun students perform a trapping drill, they are somehow "fighting" or "sparring". Of course not, they are performing a drill for sensitivity, trying to see and take advantage of the openings in the other guy's technique. They feel these openings several times a second, and any of them could be turned into entering and closing in.

PS. You have a typo in the link, missed a dot after www

[akja]

These guys seem to understand trapping. When I've stated in other threads about practicing from the clinch as a starting position, thats what it refers to. When in a clinch you use your sensitivity whether you call it that or not
.
Everybody starts from the same positions, outside punching range, in the guard etc. Sensitivity can and should be practiced from all positions. What you see in pictures and such is usually the most basic of trapping.

I'm nowhere near the league of my Sifu and would not expect to trap against someone that good, I'd use something else I'm comfortable at. But to trap isn't going to be like a movie scene. And remember to trap from the outside range, you only have to trap one strike to set the motion. Its a fat chance that your attacker is going to use trapping as a counter.

When I teach trapping, I often say to catch his hands, its easier to visualize catching a hand than trapping. Trapping is something that takes time, even after 6 months practice it'd be hard to trap a good jab but not impossible. All arts and there tools take time to learn even a simple art with few strikes like boxing needs a lot of practice.

[robertlee]

As first trapping is just a precurser to a strike ect. Trapping allows an entry tool. And it is the following of a punch. The punch no matter how fast it retracts back. To follow it back with a trap .Makes the trap more workable. or trap as the punch is getting off. Parry to a trap is more time consuming. Then just gowing to the trap as the strike develops. trapping takes many hours of training. The lingerd effect is at a lower level of training.Resistive, retracting and forward pressures of energy must be trained to make the trapping hands work. But any time a strike or any impact tool can do the job without trapping. then it should be utilized first. Compound traps. cross traps Require much training to be effective. And will meet more resistance in the real. So really at first you could say you become a robot to trapping. The beginer linger and trap. then advanced to resistive and it gets more real. But allways have to remember what a trap is meant for. And that is the one use to enter to another impact or control tool. so many times it wont have to be used. But trapping is worth the learning.

[Bri Thai]

Originally posted by JIMI
Well another clear cut example of Bri Thai's stupidity. My advice is for you to try it yourself on someone who has a skill for trapping, then come back with your results. I also ignorantly challenged trapping at one time and tried to prove an instructor wrong, i figured a typical jab, cross boxing move would do it. I threw them as hard as i could right at his face and i aimed to hit 6 inches past his head. Result was, in an instant i had both my arms trapped faster than the blink of an eye and i got slapped hard across the face. I am thinkin that a bitch slap may be what you need to teach you some respect for this art.

I actually learnt quite a lot from most of the contributions on this thread. But not this one. But, if you must know I took Wing Chun way back in the 80s under two guys qualified to teach by Master Samual Kwok. They were both a bit big headed (WC was THE art at the time, and it went to their heads) and one tried to bitch slap me around. I defeated him with something as basic as Shukokai Karate (in which I was only 1st Kyu). You seems to have some kind of axe to grind, and strike me as rather sad.

But for other people, why does trapping not really feature in many of the MMA tournaments?

[sikal]

Originally posted by Bri Thai
But for other people, why does trapping not really feature in many of the MMA tournaments?

Depends on how you define trapping. By my definition, I've seen trapping in every single MMA event I've watched. I've also used it in every fight I've been in -- which hasn't been a lot, but I've had my share. And, everyone I know who defines trapping similarly and has fighting experience says the same thing.

But, like I said, it depends on how you define trapping. If you limit trapping to the classical structure (ala "pak sao - lap sao" and "double pak sao" etc.) then, no, it's not used that often in fights. Though these are occasionally used. More often, they are single expressions, not combinations. But a trap is a trap.

Personally, I consider trapping to be "obstacle removal." I want to put my weapon on a target. If I remove an obstacle between my weapon and my target, then I have applied a trap. If I hit my target, then the trap was not only applied, it served its purpose.

Mike

[terry]

In my experience a guy with 6 months of Muay Thai and a decent straight knee #2 will destroy about 60% of the trapping range of a skilled compound trapper (WC of JF guy) with 5 years of training. Thus the maxim: A sophisticated technique can generally be countered with a basic technique. And when you're training guys to fight you'd better get them good at the basics.

Terry

[JIMI]

K i thought that your thread was addressing the hand to hand "fancy trapping" so to speak. Of course you cant trap a knee or a kick using hand to hand trapping and sticking hands. I just felt that you somehow were trying to grind your axe and in turn i guess i grinded mine. I have read your background in your training on your Bio list, and after reading that and then seeing some of the posts and silly questions you ask, i just cant see at all where you are coming from and why you ask questions like that. Now i know others in this thread have put in on other types of trapping but you were referring specifically to JKD style trapping, which as far as i know is a basic wing chun style of hand to hand trapping, so lets stay on subject guys. If you open the discussion to all types of trapping including grpalling on the ground, then you are delving into another realm. But as far as the "fancy trapping" that you are referring to in the JKD sense, it works and works very well. I would think someone with a Wing Chun background would understand that.

[sikal]

Originally posted by terry
In my experience a guy with 6 months of Muay Thai and a decent straight knee #2 will destroy about 60% of the trapping range of a skilled compound trapper (WC of JF guy) with 5 years of training. Thus the maxim: A sophisticated technique can generally be countered with a basic technique. And when you're training guys to fight you'd better get them good at the basics.

Terry

In my experience, "compound trapping" is just a training tool. And MT uses trapping, at least by my definition

Mike

[Bri Thai]

JIMI - I wasn't trying to put any art down, just trying to understand it more. I have not made my mind up that "fancy trapping" is crap. But I am sayinbg that I don't understand it.

Yes, I did do Wing Chun for about 12 months. I know that it isn't a long time, but I left because of the seemingly poor street application. Maybe it was just a reflection of the instructors I had. And their "senior students" were real pussies.

But I don't include any kind of groundwork etc. in the type of trapping I am asking about. I am refering to twisting and then supposedly breaking arms, or spinning people around etc that Larry Hartsell seems to do. I personally have never seen that used in a real fight, whether MMA or street confrontation. For me the issue is with the so called "attacker". Any technique that calls for the attacker to punch and then momentariy "freeze" is nonsens as far as I am concerned, and that is what seems to happen in fancy trapping.

I agree with terry. Brutal basics are best - for the ring and the street.

[sikal]

Originally posted by Bri Thai

But I don't include any kind of groundwork etc. in the type of trapping I am asking about. I am refering to twisting and then supposedly breaking arms, or spinning people around etc that Larry Hartsell seems to do. I personally have never seen that used in a real fight, whether MMA or street confrontation. For me the issue is with the so called "attacker". Any technique that calls for the attacker to punch and then momentariy "freeze" is nonsens as far as I am concerned, and that is what seems to happen in fancy trapping.

I agree with terry. Brutal basics are best - for the ring and the street.

OK ... but you seem to be overlooking a lot of the points that have been made in this thread. The "freezing" you're referring to is purely a very basic training mode. As the training progresses, it becomes more fluid. This leads the practitioners into Chi Sao and its variations. And this leads to sparring. The "freezing" you're talking about is just the first step in the development. It's isolation training -- which is common in a lot of martial arts.

I'm not sure specifically what you're talking about with Larry Hartsell because I haven't yet gotten to train with him.

What one system/person considers "brutal basics," another considers fluff. It's all just tools. If trapping (according to your definition) doesn't work for you, then fine. It does (according to my definition) work for me. I use it all the time.

Ron Balicki said something at a seminar that I really liked. He and Dan Inosanto had been talking about trapping and the controversy surrounding it. Dan said, "You know, it's like jumping rope. Most every boxer in the world jumps rope. But they don't get in the ring and jump rope. They don't even use the motions of jumping a rope. Jumping rope build attributes that improve the mobility and footwork of the boxer. Trapping drills are the same thing." Please note, this is not a direct quote. Ron paraphrased Dan when I heard it, and I've paraphrased what Ron said.

Mike

[Bri Thai]

That makes alot of sense, as long as the person training it understands it also. I am not having a go at Inosanto. He is a great martial artist and an inspiration to me.