Mixed Martial Arts is NOT Jeet Kune Do

[Great Sage]

The other day, I got into a discussion about Jeet Kune Do. I know it’s a subject that has been debated time and again, but I ran into an article by Derek Weismandel that has some good points.

“A major misconception of Jeet Kune Do is that it is a mixture of techniques from various arts. A contributing factor to this misconception is the reasons why a J.K.D. Practitioner researches other arts. One does not research in order to add new techniques. As Bruce stated, Jeet Kune Do "is not daily increase but daily decrease". One researches other arts to understand the principles behind them so that he can counter them. It is true that Bruce Lee did not live long enough to see some of the current trends such as grappling. This is where personal research comes in. But remember, it is the principles of Jeet Kune Do (being simple, direct, non-classical, strong side forward, 80% of your hitting off of lead hand and lead foot) that give you the basis for y our analysis. Then if a technique is valid and follows the principles, you can absorb it and make it your own.”

[robertlee]

Bruce very well looked into the grappling side of the m/a training. And encouraged the students to do like wise. And mixed m/a is not jkd or near jkd. Its a mix of current contact training . People do get confused to what is and is not. And after the foundation of jkd is set what may be added to personal growth is right and still jkd .But its yours alone. To teach it in method one must set the core then demostrate the blend so that others will have the base to thefoundation to build off also. That is becoming lost thru concepts. jkd as concept fits in takes what is the useful. But the useful must be trained to be found. What you can not do today does not mean its no good. Training takes time. And some wont wait. want the fast lane of now. Learn the tools train a couple years and watch how you develop befor going on. Reaching in the grab bag to soon sometimes is good sometimes is bad. Jkd by its self has a set of tools worth the time. exploring clinch, and ground tools are apart of its path as asked of by bruce his self to all students. And he would still refure to it as jkd. Looking deeper into the boxer set si continueing along the path. The thia set was explored and more able to be explored today then in the sixties. Reseach the tools that was looked at back then and some can be better looked at today. Still jkd. Gracie jujitsu is still jujitsu . bruce looked at judo and jujitsu . So you can look a little further then he could at the time period. All points aside the tools that led to the development of jkd can be seen and checked more clearly today. and those tools will still be jkd in the end . The arts that were found not directly atributeary art would be a mixing. And lead away from the jkd path. But may stay within the point of concepts. This would remain to question of personal research. Of what you found that was over looked when bruce took that look. And yes some arts exposed today were not at the door step in the sixties to see the use. Jkd can be many things and then just nothing. But it has to be built from the foundation of the core set to retain its quality.

[smartmonkey]

"Gracie jujitsu is still jujitsu . bruce looked at judo and jujitsu . So you can look a little further then he could at the time period."

Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, JKD, and JuJitsu are simply NAMES/words. And not the thing/fighting itself. And no permission is needed from anyone to look 'a little further' then someone else.



"But it has to be built from the foundation of the core set to retain its quality."


Intersting point. How would you MEASURE this "quality"? Through stories of ancient masters? Personal stories of "streetfighting". Just curious what measure would be applied? Sparring perhaps?


If it's sparring that will serve as your measure, then you may have a little competition in the stand up areas from the skilled boxers, Thai Boxers, and Savate players.


If it's sparring that will serve as your measure, then you may have a little competition in the clinch/"trapping" areas from the Greco Roman wrestlers, and Muay Thai players skilled in the clinch. Not to mention skilled Judoka.


If it's sparring that will serve as your measure, then you may have a little competition in the ground from the BJJ and modern Submission fighters.


If it's stories about "streetfights" that will serve as your measure, or some other form of mythology, I have some swamp land real estate I would like to sell you!



So if by QUALITY you mean = PERFORMANCE, then how do you measure?

And whom are you measuring against?




The word is not the thing, the description is NOT the described. Fighting "STYLE" is personal, and DELIVERY SYSTEMS are empirical, and fully subject to testing against resisting, agressive, and strong opponents.


To teach someone "Bruce Lee's" style is rather like teaching someone Muhamed Ali's "style". It's a mistake.


Using Boxing as an example, one should teach only the proven, and testable delivery system of boxing, and let each boxer develop his own personal "style" through sparring. Some boxers box best like Frasier, others like Ali, others like Duran, who's to say? Only the individual athlete.

To try and make a fighter box like someone else is the worst thing any true Coach could ever do. Reserach the history of Marvis Frasier for an excellent example of this simple athletic principle of coaching in action.


The same holds true for BJJ. An armbar is an armbar. and YES folks, there is a BEST way to do it. But each BJJ player learns to get into that armbar in completely different ways. JJ Machado moves completely differently from Rigan Machado. Yet they are brothers, and learned the same Art from the same Instructor.


This is the difference between "style", which MUST always be INDIVIDUAL. And Delivery System, which is based should be based on measured evidence against strong, agressive attackers.


The problem with people who argue over what JKD is or is not is that,

A) They don't understand that distinction as many where never competitive athletes.

and

B) They are often much more motivated by the 'image', and attachment to the image of the charismatic Bruce Lee then they are by PERFORMANCE.


If PERFORMANCE is your goal then this conversation becomes redundent.



If someone is interested in performance, rather then IMAGE, then common sense will be all one needs to follow Chairman Mao's advice of "absorbing what is usefull, and rejecting whats useless".

And as far as SIMPLICITY, and DIRECTNESS are concerned. . .show me a combat athlete who doesn't already know that.

Enjoy the day!
-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com

[robertlee]

the point was in reference to the post. As not all mixed arts is jkd. About permisson No one said you did . It was to say that What was avalible to bruce in the sixties and what is avalible now. Today there is more exposer to different arts then bruce had. And there is more exposer to the arts he looked into. So to look at the different aspects to thes arts and find a set of useable tools would still be within the confines of jkd. And its not about building robots to a art. The individual has to find how to work there ranges from standup to ground. the foundation is meant as the set devloped by bruce . A stepping stone to begin by. Freedom from style comes in sparing and non controled training. With different people. As you went to the boxer. He to has to devlop his punches and then learn the how and when he can do and use them. No different then any good m/a or contact style will do. The way you teach I am sure there is a basic starting point then finding the way to use what you have showed is up to the student to devlop. Thats setting a foundation to train by isnt it. Devloping the punches the kicks the clinch the ground. Then they go on to useing them. So Say it simpal is throwing together just any thing is not to me jkd. You as I understand have trained in jkd and call it funcitional jkd. And have improved on what you have learned. And cover a good aspect to train by. You to no that jkd is one of the most argued subjects. and each has a different veiw. Each point you raised had truth in it. I think mine had its truth too. And I have to agree that you made some good points on training aspects .

[smartmonkey]

Robert, I understand what you are trying to say, however, regarding this:

"So Say it simpal is throwing together just any thing is not to me jkd"


Nobody is suggesting that. Nor is that what most modern MMA fighters do.



If you look around the modern MMA scene you will see that all the fighters train in some boxing structured stand up delivery system, be it good ol western boxing, or Muay Thai.

some form of wrestling, for the sprawl, shots, and clinch skills.

And BJJ, or a wrestling BJJ blend.

All modern fighters are coming to MMA with those basic delivery systems.


There is a reason for that!


All those Arts listed above are ALIVE Arts, and train against agressive, resisting opponents.


That's very different from either:

a) trying to put together a various mix from un-related 'traditional' Martial Art's structures (dead pattern Arts).

Which I would never suggest, as it will not produce results based on PERFORMANCE.

or

b) attempting to mimic another fighters personal "style" of delivery system. Such as Muhhamed Ali style of boxing, or John Smith "style" of wrestling.


Which I would also never suggest as it may not be how that Athlete needs to box, wrestle, or perform on the ground.



An individual "style", the JKD of it if you will, is discovered in the sparring phases of proven, Alive, delivery systems. NOT in a hodge podge buffet aproach to dead pattern Arts. Or the imitation of past legends.


What we try and offer is solid training in the fundementals of the basic delivery systems for stand up, clinch, and ground. The athlete discovers their own "style" themselves, through years and years of Alive drilling, sparring, and training. That's the JKD part.

Enjoy
-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com

[James Bullock]

Good post Matt..

Training methodology is always more important than any style or system.

Regards,

[ryanhall]

Excellent contributions, Matt.

[robertlee]

I agree that many of the mixed fighters or mixed practioners are indeed finding good core tools that work. And thats begining to show that a mix of a small workable set is the better. And any time hands on training with freedom to devlop. Does have a purpose to testing what best works for the person and for that day also. I still see jkd as the begining to that development if its going to be jkd based . Then yes all the extra training . bjj, thia boxing. wrestling. ect. compliments into the personal aspect of the induvidual in becoming more to say complete. In understanding and doing. Uncontroled resistive training brings out what you can get off. And how you can develop and improve. Hodge podge training is still being refured to as jkd by some. Because they have grown to believe that jkd can be anything. Throw a little this and that together and poof you are doing jkd. I believe its part of the continued miss understanding of what leads to a workable set. To me going from one range to the other.Is the being there before and transend past the now what do I do to being able to go to the tools that fit that range and atempt to either stay and fight in that range or work on escape back to a more confortable range. And mixed M/A fighters are per say learning to be in a more jkd type concepts fighter then . Many of the jkd people are getting. Because they are finding faster what and how to get off with there method oftesting what does work for them. But just as Bruce left a certain base to his wing chun in what went on to be called jkd. Wing chun remained the foundation to development. Extending that to jkd The tools that it offers. and to go beyond explore other facters test and bring into the personal use to me is still jkd in a personal or extended version. A bjj fighter that builds a good stand up game would say look at the boxers hands and perhaps the thai boxer to improve. But hold the bjj as a core to go by. A certain set of rules apply to all training methods. After that testing doing finding how you can get them working is sparring and fighting. All that becomes the personal way of use. And some one will allways be a little better a little smarter. With the vast exposer today and the mixing of the hands on arts, in key ways mixed martial arts may very well be the best method . Jkd was that in the sixties. core of one art blend of others. perhaps it is best to not brand what is jkd .But by doing discover what becomes the persons jkd. I guess this is why jkd leads to what the person sees as the devlop. And lends it self to a debated subject. So you might say its just about what you have discoverd that improves what you can do.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Well Matt said everything I wanted to say .... Aww


Good post.

It's all fine and dandy to talk about what JKD is or isn't.. but if something that JKD isn't works better than something JKD is...guess which one I want to train.....


Ryu

[robertlee]

I would consider doing the same thing. Jkd is not the best art after all. Any art doing hands on is something to look into.

[Davidc316]

Personally, I find it strange how many JKD people spend so much energy learning martial arts such as Kali (for example) when there is very little documented evidence that Bruce spent any great deal of time focussing on these particular martial arts styles.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Because to put it bluntly, one shouldn't give a shit what Bruce did or didn't study. If it works you use it. I like Kali for it's knife and stick work. Sometimes it's good to stick a knife in someone. Bruce didn't look into firearms training, adrenaline dump scenario training, either...

If you see Bruce Lee on the road, kill him.

Ryu

[ryanhall]

If you see Bruce Lee on the road, kill him.

That guy just won't stay dead, will he.

I'll try, but if I do run into the specter of a long dead martial arts legend, I'll probably be too busy trying to cash in on my luck by shooting craps in Vegas and buying lotto tickets to kill him.

[Davidc316]

Originally posted by Ryu (JKD?)
one shouldn't give a shit what Bruce did or didn't study.

I'm sorry to see this coming from a potential future JKD instructor.

-David

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by Ryu (JKD?)
Because to put it bluntly, one shouldn't give a shit what Bruce did or didn't study. If it works you use it. I like Kali for it's knife and stick work. Sometimes it's good to stick a knife in someone. Bruce didn't look into firearms training, adrenaline dump scenario training, either...

Bruce was an avid gun collector and range shooter.