Martial Art or Martial Sport

[David M.]

Should 'training' in the martial arts be about becoming more physically fit and a better fighter, or should 'studying' a martial art provide these progressions as by-products? I have an on-going, civilized arguement with one of my teachers because often we spend the allotted time killing ourselves to be in better physical condition. Is this martial arts? or is it martial arts when we spend the entire time grilling ourselves doing kata untill our thighs can barely hold us?

Now it's out there for the rants... bring it.

[James Bullock]

It really does depend on your goals...no one can say what training SHOULD be. Of course there are more benificial trainining methods than others.

For example..if you want to be a well rounded martial artist..then all of your attributes should be developed extensively...but this is still my opinion.

[yenhoi]

Well since you are the one training, you answer the question.

I train to train, I dont study martial art.

Why do you train?

[jcolvin]

Originally posted by David M.
Should 'training' in the martial arts be about becoming more physically fit and a better fighter, or should 'studying' a martial art provide these progressions as by-products? I have an on-going, civilized arguement with one of my teachers because often we spend the allotted time killing ourselves to be in better physical condition. Is this martial arts? or is it martial arts when we spend the entire time grilling ourselves doing kata untill our thighs can barely hold us?

Now it's out there for the rants... bring it.

If you look a the two things in my opinion they are synonomous(forgive the spelling). Because to become a better fighter you will have to be in better physical shape, namely your conditioning.

Also, I don't think you can look at your study or training in any martial art one dimensionally. At the very least there are 4 things to consider the physical and mental conditioning, the mastery of techniques and the discipline.

I am not saying you can't train if you are in bad shape I just don't think you get as much out of it as you can.

[akja]

Originally posted by David M.
Should 'training' in the martial arts be about becoming more physically fit and a better fighter, or should 'studying' a martial art provide these progressions as by-products? I have an on-going, civilized arguement with one of my teachers because often we spend the allotted time killing ourselves to be in better physical condition. Is this martial arts? or is it martial arts when we spend the entire time grilling ourselves doing kata untill our thighs can barely hold us?

Now it's out there for the rants... bring it.

You hold the key as what you want from the arts. But know matter what you choose, if you don't push yourself, then your minimizing your benefits. If you argue with your instructor, even worse have an on going argument, I'm surprised he hasn't asked you to find another school. As a man if your not satisfied with what you are being taught, you should take it upon yourself to find another school.

One of my instructors once told me point blank: "If I can teach myself, then I should teach myself."

If you are there to learn, empty your cup and absorb as much as you can. What may not be usefull today, maybe usefull tomorrow.

Back to th physical training. In all arts there are certain exercises that benefit your training and your instructor is the one one who knows best.

[jtrejo]

The basics in a martial arts system ( karate ) are there to condition your body that is why your legs are so sore. Many people believe that all the deep low stances and chambering of the fist is how a karate man fights which is not true.
As for kata it is also conditioning plus there are some very good techniques. My current instructor a 4th dan and 30 years exp. has had me gasping for breath from a kata technique.
Of course you will learn how to fight it just takes more time because you are learing an art form. It does help greatly to be in shape because you never know if you have to make a run for it

Yes, you are quite right. Why learn techniques that will make you an effective fighter in months, when you could learn ones so unrealistic that it will be decades before you can even think of applying them?

Beats the hell outta me!

[ryanhall]

Bri Thai, you fool! You have to clean the dojo for years before you can even think of calling yourself an effective fighter. The martial arts are about self-improvement and wearing unusual clothing while dancing with yourself, not mere fighting or your primitive and disgusting violence. You and your simple yet effective techniques sicken me beyond the ability of words to describe my feeling

[terry]

Originally posted by jtrejo
The basics in a martial arts system ( karate ) are there to condition your body that is why your legs are so sore. Many people believe that all the deep low stances and chambering of the fist is how a karate man fights which is not true.
As for kata it is also conditioning plus there are some very good techniques.

Hmmm...Methinks that they come up short when evaluated for both fighting methods and GPP (general physical preparation) conditioning.

If we select just the GPP stuff: I'd like to try this for three hours a week for six months. You have someone sit in a horse stance and throw chambered reverse punches and then work on kata or whatever traditional stuff you like.

I'll take the guy through a Westside barbell GPP workout, followed by sled work, wind sprints and basic thai boxing work.

In six months, wanna bet who will have improved their leg strength, core, punching power, aerobic endurance, anaerobic threshold and general physical conditioning more? I'd be interested in what metric you would prefer to use, but I think the outcome would be pretty clear.

Terry

Most of these ancient training techniques come from a time when they just didn't know any better.

Check out every other physical event or sport. They use modern conditioning techniques and even amateurs smash the records of old.

Sitting in a horse stance. Of course it hurts, but so what?

[terry]

I was just reading some rather dry and scientific comments on isometric training methods from one of the more successful Russian olympic coaches last night. I haven't been able to find the specific passage (I'll look it up when I get a chance and post it), but I remember him saying that isometric training is best when considered a supplemental form of strength training. It has some plusses and minuses, but one of the larger minuses is that it does not produce strength through the entire range of motion. The Russians use isometric training training to isolate specific sticking spots in the strength range of their athletes. They have measured results systematically and have graphs that indicate that 10-12 second duration is most efficient. They didn't have data relevant to sitting in a horse stance for 30-45 minutes because they didn't even consider isometric training intervals that long (the curve showed decay in well under a minute). So long bouts of horse stance training is probably lousy training. (But I suppose it's good for weeding out undesirable people though, eh? I use Thai pads for that.)

What I have seen a lot of athletes use for the kind of explosive leg strength that martial artists need is band training. Check it out: http://www.jumpstretch.com.

[jtrejo]

Most people are forgetting that true karate is not a sport you fight with no rules. Every person who has ever entered the dojo and there was not many, who wanted to challenge sensi was told that all students must leave, the doors are locked and only one man leaves, no rules. No matter how fit you are you cannot condition the vunerable parts of the body. I am not here to endorse karate but people who put down other arts are ignorant. There are good things to learn in all systems and crosstraining is great.