What place does chi sao have in your training?

[gungfuhero]

Do you any of you guys practice it? Do you see any results? Is there any "better" method of gaining sensitivity with one's trapping?

[sikal]

Originally posted by gungfuhero
Do you any of you guys practice it? Do you see any results? Is there any "better" method of gaining sensitivity with one's trapping?

I've played a *little* (and I can't stress that strong enough) Chi Sao. The majority of the trapping I've learned has come from FMA (I train primarily in Kali and Silat). The FMA equivalent of Chi Sao is a drill called "hubad lubad" which means "to tie and blend." At the beginning level of the drill, you tie up your opponent, then allow him to blend and tie you, and repeat.

As you progress, more options (and weapons) are added to the basic foundation and you end up doing it freestyle ... which can then lead into sparring. The mindset (because of the weapon oriented foundation, IMHO) is a little different than what I've seen of Chi Sao and is not quite as sticky. However, it teaches many of the same principles (i.e.: sensitivity, trapping, not getting trapped) and all the various traps (i.e.: pak, lap, jut, jao, huen, tan, etc.) which I've seen in Jun Fan (my closest exposure to WC) are available ... along with joint locks, disarms (if weapons are involved), punches, kicks, sweeps, etc. (I would assume these are also available in Chi Sao ... though I've not seen enough to know for sure).

Is it "better" than Chi Sao ... probably depends on who you ask. I'm sure that it suits some people better ... and I'm sure that Chi Sao suits others better. It can enhance your Chi Sao ... just like Chi Sao training can enhance hubad lubad. Anytime you work different drills that train the same principles, you're going to be better developed in those principles than if you only train one of the drills. Hubad focuses more on certain things than Chi Sao does ... and vice versa. By working both, you should gain a better overall understanding of the principles common to both.

"Do I see any results?" Absolutely! Through training Hubad, my sensitivity in close range has been vastly improved. My ability to trap and avoid being trapped comes almost exclusively from Hubad training ... and I'm a competent trapper.

Regards, Mike

[aseepish]

What we did a lot of at my club was start out in hubud, and just flow. Sometimes we would end up in lop-sao, sometimes in chi-sao, we would just let the energy take us from one drill to the other. We would isolate hubud more often than not though. Personally I love energy drills of any kind.
--Tony

[quietanswer]

I'm a fan of energy drill as well.

I find that hubud has developed my ability to tie someone up with the pak at the elbow. This is really useful. When someone pulls back for the crazy-assed-big-knockout-backhand-blow it takes almost no effort for me to now jump in and stop it at the elbow. I think this is owed to my hubud drilling time.

Alot of the trapping drills are useful to me in nonspecific situations.. sometimes when a person misses, his blow will glance off you in a way that makes paking it down to smother it really easy as you close. It's not a clear pak sao as done in the one count drills. but it's a pak energy nonetheless, and i learned to do it from the drills (and early wrestling with an older sibling).. they are energy drills, they develop sensitivity. if you wonder if these things have anything to do with fighting, i'd like to introduce you to my buddy, he's 145lbs and a state level wrestler. I'd put money on him any day.. he'll tell you his only fight skills are balance and sensitivity. he can't explain how to do a single throw Because it's all balance and sensitivity to him.


I have never trapped a boxer in a boxing only contest... not in the traditional sense. However, many times sparring we end up in non classical boxing tie up.. why do i call it non classical? cause it's not a standard clinch. it's a pre-clinch..where your arms are tied up in some fashion where neither opponent has a dominant hold yet, things are sloppy.. trapping is useful here, in getting a dominant position to set up a punch or clinch. but it's always based on what you are offered..never on what I want to take. and frequently, I don't use any set, clearly visible trapping skill. However, in repositioning my arms to control his arms, my sensitivity is being used, and is useful. A lot of the skills I learned in the few basic wingchun drills I've done (and the couple of kali/A/S ones) are not apparent to an observer when being used. but they are still extremely useful.

People frequently ask if trapping really works. Well, it does. It does not work like a bruce lee movie, however. I mean, granted, you get two guys at high enough skill level in trapping alone (reads: no other skills ) then they may stand and trap for hours..I guess. But that isn't how it's applied in a standard streetfight. It's used as another fractional gain to a more dominant position. That's no small gain..any gain is a huge gain. Sometimes I think it's confusing for teachers to call trapping it's own range. this sounds to me like having a range called "blocking" range.. all ranges are blocking range.. since boxing has it's own range, and wrestling it's own, people often think "oh, I can trap throughout an entire fight, and neither box nor wrestle".. well.. that's just not right, in my experience. maybe SOME guy is capable of just trapping til the other guy goes away.. but trapping does not work without striking or wrestling. Trapping is a funny fractional dominance gainer.. it aids both boxing and wrestling, as it's used to tie up the arms (skills exist for both of these in both sports, and many of them look like wing chun if you dissect them)... and a guy boxes and wrestles worse if he has one arm.. most guys..anyway.
that's enough on this for today. Keep in mind, this written from my experience. So if I say it works for me, it's been practiced with various people beating on me..and if I say "it doesn't work that way.." then this knowledge is limted by my lack of experience.


[Edited by quietanswer on 11-20-2000 at 05:01 PM]

[sikal]

Originally posted by quietanswer
but trapping does not work without striking or wrestling. Trapping is a funny fractional dominance gainer.. it aids both boxing and wrestling, as it's used to tie up the arms (skills exist for both of these in both sports, and many of them look like wing chun if you dissect them)... and a guy boxes and wrestles worse if he has one arm.. most guys..anyway.
that's enough on this for today. Keep in mind, this written from my experience. So if I say it works for me, it's been practiced with various people beating on me..and if I say "it doesn't work that way.." then this knowledge is limted by my lack of experience.


[Edited by quietanswer on 11-20-2000 at 05:01 PM]

Bingo. Trapping is not a solution. It is merely a tool. Trapping opens a door through which you can fire your guns. It is (in my training and experience) a tool to *temporarily* immobilize or inhibit the mobility of their hands so you can fire. The door it opens can be used to fire strikes, upset the person's balance, gain a joint lock, etc. Trapping is like a wratchet wrench. By itself it's useless. Only when you put a socket on the wrench is it at all useful (as anything other than a hammer :-).

"Classical" trapping is simply the method of training. By training the *ideal*, we are more likely to be able to pull of *something* useful that approaches the ideal when the fit hits the shan. Anything which accomplishes the above stated purpose (i.e.: remove the barriers and open the door so you can fire your other guns at them) is technically a "trap."

So, if I walk up and hug a guy (pinning his arms to his side) and headbutt him then I have, technically, successfully trapped him.

Another aspect of trapping that I love is foot trapping. It's particularly useful against kickers ... and they *hate* it ... it's evil, I know ... but *so* very much fun! :-)

Regards, Mike

[quietanswer]

ya know, I think a great metaphor for explaining trapping is a cruel older brother. (or an older brother in cruel mode, anyway). those of us with older brothers have all been victims of trapping. I think that's where I first learned the skill. Having one hand pinned to my chest while the other is grabbed at the wrist and used to pummel myself 'Why ya hittin yourself, dwayne? quit hittin yourself..why ya hittin yourself...'..etc. And this isn't purely a joke. Heh. It's just, trapping comes natural, I think..as it came natural when we were kids.