BRUCE LEE, WORSHIP HIM!!! j/k

[Jowan]

ONLY JOKING!
this message is about truths in combat:

i worked out these truths if an opponent moves toward you, which is the basis of combat. so following these rules, you should be able to bluff an opponent, and succeed in hitting him.
tell me what oyu think! i want good advice, not ignorant ravings!

1. after an opponent feints-
you feint, wait for the counter attack of a trap and hit, with both hands, when the enemy does this, trap his hitting hand, your feinting hand will have decieved his trapping hand, and you will be able to strike him with your feinting hand.
both his hands will be trapping and hitting, so you cannot be stopped by a parry.
2 beats.

2. if the opponent hits you-
trap his hand, while feinting high, his hand will parry your fein, then you can hit his body with your original trapping hand, while trapping his attack with your other free hand.
2 beats.

3. if opponent kicks-
trap and feint high, while executing a low kick to his back leg, if he counters your feint, then trap his hand with the hand you used to trap his leg.
2 beats.

all traps used are pak sau.
so how do you think this will work?
take this to your moves, ad the theory to them, and tell me what you think.
if anything different happens, then you will just score quicker, or you will just disengage and return to the start position.
-Jowan-

[shasan]

i'm skeptical of the use of pak sau in actual combat. Mainly cuz I think it's hard for someone to pak sau a hay maker or a wild swinging right hook... thoughts?

I think there's way more to trapping then that.

[Tom Yum]

Instead of trapping, can you check his shoulder to keep him at bay?

I am vaguely familiar with wc/jkd.

[shasan]

Tom, I'm not sure what you mean by 'checking his shoulder'.


jowan is talking about an opponent who is also a WC practitioner (sorry, didn't read that at first).

If I was up against another WC guy, I wouldn't really bring his own game to him.. I would box him and kick him, setting up with fast jabs to draw his parries and pak-sau's and following up with fast hooks which are IMPOSSIBLE to parry or pak-sau (at least, for me).

And since he would be MORE than willing to come into trapping range, it would be less work for me to get into a clinch (pak sau that! lol j/k) some head butts or knees... take him down and finish it on the ground. I wouldn't have to close the gap cuz he would do it for me. WC is not much from the kicking range.

If I really wanted to keep someone at bay, I would *try* to do it by kicking him. Although if someone his hell-bent on closing the gap, they eventually will unless you knock them out (from what I've seen).

[Jowan]

Think of it this way!!!
if someone was the same skill as you, and you kept hitting and he kept parrying, the only way for you to hit him would be to disable his 2 arms! this is true the whole world round.
now when he is countering, he is using one hand to parry, and one to hit you, right? so he has no arms!
feint at him, drawing his counter attack, and as a feint is faster than a hit, you will be able to trap his counter attack, his hand will be parrying air, and it will give you the chance to hit him anywhere!
understand?
the others are just variations, with the leg, and if HE feints first.
do you think this will work?
-Jowan-

[Tom Yum]

Can I use destructions?

[spiderchoke]

I am not sure if relying on trapping in a real life conflict is the A+ number one thing to do. I personally would rely more on my body position and if the trap is there, it will happen.

IMHO.

[Jowan]

!!!!!
this post has bugger all to do with whether trapping would work! jesus!!!
its about decieving the opponents arms, intercepting his movement and ensuring a hit.
-Jowan-

[shasan]

easy....

[Hunter P]

Spiderchoke is quite correct. Never look for trapping or you will loose.

[shasan]

Ok, here is what I think:

Originally posted by Jowan
ONLY JOKING!
this message is about truths in combat:

1. after an opponent feints-
you feint, wait for the counter attack of a trap and hit, with both hands, when the enemy does this, trap his hitting hand, your feinting hand will have decieved his trapping hand, and you will be able to strike him with your feinting hand.
both his hands will be trapping and hitting, so you cannot be stopped by a parry.
2 beats.

If I follow his feint with a feint of my own, there are a myriad of things that he can do. It is quite likely that if he tries to pak-sau my feint, he will realize half way through the pak-sau that I have feinted and probably won't launch a counterstrike. (at least, that's how I would react).

For this to work, not only do I have to be very fast in feinting and attacking, but he has to be exceptionally fast in pak-sau and counterattack. if there is a delay, your feint will be discovered as a feint and no counter attack would come.

2. if the opponent hits you-
trap his hand, while feinting high, his hand will parry your fein, then you can hit his body with your original trapping hand, while trapping his attack with your other free hand.
2 beats.

sure. If your trap is successful, I guess it would work... if pak-sau traps were so easy to do in a real fight.

3. if opponent kicks-
trap and feint high, while executing a low kick to his back leg, if he counters your feint, then trap his hand with the hand you used to trap his leg.
2 beats.

trapping his kick? personally I wouldn't try, but sure, if your traps are successful, I don't see a reason for this not to work.

So you see, it all depends on your traps being successful. Pak-sau is really hard to execute in a real confrontation, so I would wager that your traps would not be successful and all of that would not work, unfortunately.

And THAT's the 'truth' in combat

[Jowan]

I understand,
for a moment, forget trapping and forget pak sau.
just think of DECIEVING.
you are right when oyu say that you would pak sau my feint, and not counter attack, but if you did that, then we would be back at square one, and we could try the whole thing again.
my main point is that the only SUCCESSFUL way of landing a hit is by decieving the defense of both hands.
can we discuss ways of decieving both hands then?
anyway, bruce lee could use pak sau in fights, why can't we?
-Jowan-

[shasan]

Originally posted by Jowan
I understand,
...my main point is that the only SUCCESSFUL way of landing a hit is by decieving the defense of both hands...

...anyway, bruce lee could use pak sau in fights, why can't we?
-Jowan-

Not entirely no... if, for example, you are up against a boxer, you don't necessarily have to deceive both his hands to land a hit.

western Boxers do a lot of strike EVASION, like slipping, bobbing and weaving... the rule is basically to make the other guy miss and counter. There's no concept of blocking or parrying or anything. So if your opponent is moving around it's harder to land a hit, doesn't matter what his hands are doing.

But yes, when boxing, we are told to mix up the attack... 'upstairs downstairs' i.e. hard body attacks makes the guy drop his guard down to his stomach which leaves an opening at the head... so you are partly correct.

About the Bruce Lee thing, that is a thread by itself... I'm sure the subject has been rehashed ad nauseum. If you think you can execute a pak-sao in real combat, more power to you. I, however, will depend on straight blasts, elbows, knees, headbutts in the trapping range.

[Lizard]

You thing a street brawler is going to feint and trap?

I would prefer to hit first rather than think up lots of clever little strategies.

If the mugger does a flying kick I will spin around flailing wildly...

[shasan]

I'm not sure he was talking about a street brawl. I think he means wing chun guy vs. wing chun guy.