Spookey

Oh Do Kwan style TKD is the child of Major Gen. Choi Hong Hi! It is far from the McDojang quality of TKD taught commercially today! It encompasses striking, trapping, releases, throws, and joint destruction!
Everyone states that TKD came from Japanese ma(s) but always state that the system is lacking in its range of technique...so why if TKD (or the many original Kwans) was developed by Koreans who first practiced Japanese styles (ie. Shotokan and Jujutsu) would it be so far fetched an idea as to accept that true TKD/Oh Do Kwan would have joint locks, throws, and reversals?
The lack of properly trained instructors promoting watered down TKD (as well as all TMA) is the main reason for the common perception that TKD is not an effective means of fighting. However, if you incompass the entirety of the art along with the fact that those whom have proven the effectiveness of this art were combat soldiers (and I am refering to Oh Do Kwan) speeks volumes as to the need for both mental and physical totality
in training an art for it to be effective!
A person whom is intent on learning technique for self preservation should first realize the importance of the power of thought! Thinking enables us to be capable of recognizing a threat prior to dealing with it (hopefully, allowing its avoidance)...it also allows us to recognize a possible flaw in instruction!
So, it is unrealistic that someone who practices/teach from a recreational stand point will gain the benefits of the art...and should not be seen as a reflection of the totality of the art itself!
Remember, your mind is your first recoarse for defense!

USE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TAEKWON!

IPON

Sounds like hapkido being taught as TKD

__________________
A person who is said to be proficient in the arts is like a fool. Because of his foolishness in concerning himself with just one thing, he thinks of nothing else and thus becomes proficient. - Hagarkure

Damian Mavis

Something alot of people outside of TKD or that are involved with WTF TKD don't realise is that the ORIGINAL TKD (old school ITF style or Oh Doh Kwan) is taken almost directly from traditional karate and includes alot of techniques outside of kicking. Just because Olympic style has dominated the world scene and therefore lead everyone to believe that ALL TKD is a certain way does not make it so. Traditional TKD was and is quite different from what you guys think, it is not copying HapKiDo, this is the way it originally was.

Having said that, even in many ITF schools (Oh Do Kwan) they have lost alot of the older techniques and focus almost exclusively on striking with kicks taking up the majority of the curriculum.

Don't say it is TKD copying something else, that is ignorance, TKD has always included many different techniques and only recently has become what it has become. Good for any old style school that refuses to jump on the trendy sport bandwagon.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

IPON

Of course it is ignorance, my ignorance I was not flamming, don't be so defensive. Maybe I could have clarified, but I was confused. I was no time rference it sounded like this was a new style of TKD and somone was trying to pass it off as somthing it wasn't really just wanted a clarification that's all.

__________________
A person who is said to be proficient in the arts is like a fool. Because of his foolishness in concerning himself with just one thing, he thinks of nothing else and thus becomes proficient. - Hagarkure

Spookey

My Friend,
Oh Do Kwan was a military gym (not stating a "military" bias, it was simply not open to civilians!) run by Gen. Choi and Nam Tae Hi, the word kwan reflects a gym, but as certain methods were/are characteristic of a specific kwan, they therefore are seen as "styles"!
Each kwan practiced their interpretation of Japanese Karate!
The original hyungs of Taekwon-Do (the "New" art, not the umbrella name for the kwans) were the Ch'ang Hon hyungs, and were first practiced and popularized at the Oh Do Kwan!
Many of the WTF higher archy first practices Karate katas then Ch'ang Hon hyungs, and then do to politics switched to the poomse (Pal Gai and Tae Guek)!
Remember, Korea was a country of turmoil and civil unrest...so just as the Karate of pre WWII was for function not fasion, the kwans of Korea were training with the same goal in mind!
Now (as with most ma(s)) the goal is marketability .ie fasion not functiona!
Oh Do Kwan was REAL function not fasion!

"Furthermore, if you are slain in battle, you should be resolved to have your corpse facing the enemy"..."if you can understand one affair, you will understand eight." -Hagakure

" If you must, run...if you can, talk...but if all else fails, FIGHT!"

TAEKWON!

Damian Mavis

Ipon, WHAT?! DEFENSIVE?! HOW DARE YOU! I'M NEVER DEFENSIVE! HOW DARE YOU INSULT TKD! TKD RUUUUUULES U! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Ok that was being defensive heh. When I posted that last post I was thinking of the many times I had heard that TKD was copying such and such since most people don't realise that the original TKD is quite different from what mainstream TKD looks like today and that there are still hundreds of thousands of people practicing old style TKD. You reminded me of it though so it looks like I was responding just to you but in truth I was just trying to put the information out there for all to see. Sorry if my use of the word ignorance came off as derogatory. Did I spell that last word right?


Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

IPON

DM - I know TKD takes alot of hits its like the poster child for MA abuse on forums. But no problem, like I said you were were right about the ignorance. I studied TSD and now HKD, I really don't know TKD that well. I always understood that TKD TKD was an offshoot of tae kyon but I have been corrected about that.

Spooky, actually it refreshing to here this info about a TMA. I am a firm believer in TMAs and also feel they should not be watered down. MAs are a poor man's passion, not everyone deserves to be a student a art. But so many people water down the style to make it accetable to those unwilling to train heard.

__________________
A person who is said to be proficient in the arts is like a fool. Because of his foolishness in concerning himself with just one thing, he thinks of nothing else and thus becomes proficient. - Hagarkure

Damian Mavis

Soccer mom syndrome, that is what it is called when an art gets so popular that soccer moms are doing it. When that happens it gets watered down to make lots of money by being easy and appealing to the average person. Just you wait, in 20 years when Muay Thai's popularity in North America grows it will also get soccer mom syndrome... hell I've already seen it start happening.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

brokenelbow

Depends on who taught them their Shotokan. If Choi learned watered down Shotokan which was watered down Okinawan karate then he started off on the wrong foot no matter what. If he learned from some of Funikoshi's better personal students he'd be doing OK. Nam Tae Hi from what I understand had much better skills than Choi. One thing you haven't mentioned is that the Oh Do Kwan was supposed to be a place where the best Korean martial artists could teach and the best distilled into Choi and Nams art. Good idea ruined by typical Korean politics.

And please stop with the "True TKD" stuff as that battle is over and regretably the ITF lost. Choi fiddled and faddled with his TKD over the years and made it worse IMO. Maybe if he stuck to making it a good system of combatives and not self improvement TKD would still have respect as a martial art.

__________________
The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

Damnit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

DM

Damian Mavis

Even in "true TKD" schools (just coining the term), there is plenty of sporty crap going on. I love TKD because I have always known it as something different then what most people know it as... but my experience is pretty rare compared to all the crap going on out there. I was always battered and bruised and bleeding in my classes, it changed me from a scared timid guy to a confident strong tough person. I love TKD for that, I really needed it. My life is completely different then what it would have been without TKD.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

TKDguy

I feel exactly the same way as u. Although what i am learning is not really Tae Kwon Do it is teykkon the precursor of tkd. I also am always bruised or bleading when i get home from classes.

ipscshooter

I thought the precursors to Taekwondo were Shotokan with a bit of Tang Soo Do mixed in.

TKDguy

i am sorry. I have just read that i am wrong and have been lied to. you r right. deepest appologies for my false statement.

ipscshooter

No reason to apologize. I think that it is a common misconception, which is furthered by Gen. Choi and GM Kee in their texts. Gen. Choi received his original black belt in, I believe, Shotokan Karate. Both cite some carvings or statues dating back to ancient Korean dynasties as proof of the lineage of Korean martial arts. And, perhaps there is a little bit of Tae Kyon influence in the high kicks in the Korean arts, as I understand that the Japanese arts emphasize lower kicking. The similarity of names is one of the reasons that Gen. Choi opted for taekwondo for the name of his art. It was to instill some form of Korean nationalistic pride in the new art by making a tenuous connection to the older art, and to erase some of the perceived stain of a connection to Japan. I notice a lot of similarities between the Chang Hon Taekwondo Hyungs and the Tang Soo Do Hyungs. Almost as though Gen. Choi took a TSD pattern book and cut and pasted the forms into TKD forms.

shirase

"Soccer mom syndrome, that is what it is called when an art gets so popular that soccer moms are doing it. When that happens it gets watered down to make lots of money by being easy and appealing to the average person. Just you wait, in 20 years when Muay Thai's popularity in North America grows it will also get soccer mom syndrome... hell I've already seen it start happening."

Today my mom told me she was going to the YMCA to work out. Then I asked her what she was going to do and said Thai Boxing. I asked her what this "thai boxing" was and she basically described it as tae bo. It is a sad day for Muay thai!