bewing77

Hmm, I feel doubly offended since TKD and Judo is my background... And actually today I do compete in MMA tournaments. True, today I practice mostly Muay thai and boxing but that is to fill in the gaps in my repertoire.

The traditional ITF TKD style we practices is not just kick kick kick, and defenatly not powerless point kicks. We sparred heavy contact and was encouraged to try unorthodox attacks (ie not just the tecniques) to learn how do defend against them. From discussing on the internet it also seems that the McDojo syndrome is much more of a problem in the US then it is over here. I have been to some WTF TKD dojangs that where very much sport-oriented, not SD. They still where good for sporting purposes. Of the 5 different ITF dojangs I have trained in and the countless I have visited I have never stumbled upon one that could be described as weak.

Judo is superb for both takedown defense and takedowns and also has a good deal of ground work. BJJs popularity of late is because of the early Gracie sucesses in UFC, but more and more Judokas are up and comming. As more and more MMA strikiers/kickers learn how to defend against takedowns the need for more effective takedowns will become evident, and in this area Judo is by far superior to BJJ.

Thai Bri

Ah but youve not got the alphabets convinced!!!!!

Yaberdaber

Sorry to say this, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but ATA is a wastedump.
Combat/self-defence is dynamic. so training in reality is what will increase survival chances in the real world, not just skill or type of MA.

__________________
PIL SUNG!!!

eXcessiveForce

Actually the core of ATA is quite good, everything that has been added since about 1994 I cannot say the same about. And every school I visit grows more and more disappointing. That is the people involved not the system.
Not a fan of Krav, I tried it, and was not really impressed.
ATA weapons are for show not combat.
Tournaments have degenerated into the WTF realm. Quite different from when I started in 1984 and we didn't even use gear. To the new chestprotectors of today. (for point sparring no less)
Many of the top masters seem to lack the basic tenets that they are supposidly teaching.
The demand loyalty and respect but rarely give it unless you are bringing in the money.

But they still have the best tournament circuit for kids in the US hands down.

__________________
eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

www.b-prime.com
A success and achievement community

Yaberdaber

I visited Arlington, tx last year for my parents and found two tkd schools near my place. One WTF, straight Olympic TKD and the other is ATA. I decided to visit those two schools to see their training regimen. From the WTF, it was sport oriented, not that it's bad, but it definately was different from one I was used to. Definately a lot more cardio and more hopping and double kicks. Even though I am part of WTF, I am surprised to see a training like this.
For the ATA, it followed a basic streching and warm up, but their techniques have ridiculus names like "tornado" kick. My brother(who trained in TKD and now Iaido) shook his head and told me not to bother going to that school, because he said," that can barely make you sweat." The instructor, sorry to say, seems to barely practice MA himself and keeps trying to convince me to stay and paying some contract to be in the school.
ATA tournaments are maintained good, I admit, but from what I see, ATA needs to shape up. If I had a choice between the two schools, it would be the WTF school, only because they didn't "seem" to want my money. I love TKD, and will stick to it, but I am ashamed of what some people would do for money.

__________________
PIL SUNG!!!

eXcessiveForce

As per the instruction manual there is no such thing as a tornado kick.

We have
Front kick
Round Kick
Side Kick
Crescent Kick
Ax Kick
Hook Kick
Jump kicks of the above
As well at 360 up too 720 spin kicks and reverses.
There are only two kicks that I know of up to the third degree level that have names.
Butterfly kick, basically a form of 360 jump spin outer crescent and scissor kick which I won't even try to explain.

Teeps are call front thrust kicks.


However in Tiny Tiger class (other names are used for the 3 to six year olds) Like high block is Umbrella block. I have never used these with my younger students. My students learn the same basics whether they are 3 or 60. They work on the same material and have to know the same things to progress in rank. But I do know that the rest of the ATA is not like this.

__________________
eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

www.b-prime.com
A success and achievement community

eXcessiveForce

Addition:

With the popularity of XMA the ATA has apparently started using some of this as a specialty class for 3rd degree and above. It is primarily to capitalize on this niche. I hope it dies out in the next year or so but I doubt it.

__________________
eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

www.b-prime.com
A success and achievement community

Tant01

I just laugh and shake my head when folks for this reason or that reason feel compelled to bash anything! It sadly reflects on our own limited thinking...

I know some TKD, punching and kicking, right? Here's my spin on styles.
I don't know the source for this but it fits...

"In all this world, you cannot trust gods nor men, nor women or beasts.
In your sword alone can you trust.
But ever remember that a sword is not strength,
Strength is the hand that holds it.
Ever remember that a sword is not power,
Power is the mind that commands it...."


TKD is just another "sword" folks. It might be short, or even ceremonial but it's still a sword and in the hands of the man (or woman) with intent, even a dull sword is a dangerous thing...


LMAO "Judo is lame but Ukemi is great" Too funny... That's like I hate icecream but love chocolate icecream...? LOL

__________________

"In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur."

James Paterson

TaeKwOnDoHuNni

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkcann01 Ok, in the two days that I have been on this site, I have probably seen at least 6 dozen posts about how TKD is the most ineffective martial art. Uh, I find this somewhat amusing, and I am wanting some feed back about how many of you have actually watched black belts spar?

xxx
i love tae kwon do
i sparr alot, i am a blue belt but where i go i sparr alot with black belts
i know lots of techniques and other things and i think that tae kwon do can really help people i agree with what you are saying
~love always
moriah

ChunGi

I know im coming in kidna late with this one, But i would argue that TKD is one of the BEst systems when trained correctly, I admit that when in a tournament situation where pionts matter more then anything else, IT may be weaker then something like karate which doesnt lift legs above the waist, ITs alot faster to kick wiast level then head. But WHen I do any "UFC" style fighting with my buds, where usually we do light contact anywhere on hte body sept nuts, with takedowns and al lhte grappling type fun stuff, I have never lost, Because The other style have major flaws, eitehr that or the person training has a flaw, like fallowing my eyes or eating up fakes like there is no tommorow. My instructor was origanly an active soldier in the army, he is still living after beign attacked by machettte wielding maniacs in korea.

Basicaly what i am saying, is if you come from a half as "lets do patterns all day, and a "self defense" technique is just anotehr pattern with only 2 or 3 steps" school, al le WTF. You will suck the big one becasue you dont have ability to do anything that is not already put infront of you a few tiems before.

Another thing that most people dont understant is there is WTF taekwondo and ITF, which is almost a different style all together, but heres the scoop. I have been to classes of both styles and decided WTF was gay within 10 minutes. Not only do they know nothing abotu taekwondo as a form (ex: who crated taekwondo??............. Everybody man, its an ancient art. WRONG: General Choi Hung He, adapted it as a military fighting style from the style of the hwarang mercenaries that protected the royal family in the silla dynasty in korea, 2131 BC (not sure about that year)). That was a turnoff . Second of all when asked to proform a self defense technique agasnt a punch I trapped the arm and immobilized trhe fool, but was told that was wrong, and that i should do it like this...... this... was a forarm block then stepping out and punching.

The key to any art is speed, power and perfection of techniques and how you deliver them, I have trained like 5 styles adn all of them are basically the same, accept the diferent techniques which i adopt if they have a purpose. I have trashed certain tkd techniques from my "vocabulary" becasue i thought they where dumb, like a double forarm block, u know the one shpaed liek a C with your arms infront of you, thats stupid. Basically if you go to a sorry ass school, with a cookie cutter black belt as a instructor who has never had to use his skills in a real life situation, u will then be a cookie cutter black belt your self, with a useless sport style martial art to your belt, and if you teach then your student will have a third generation shity style of marttial art belt, and this will degenerate until your style is a flayling mess. I have seen it happen. SO TRAIN HARD and fight like your gunna die, becasue when a native has a rather sharp knife to you kneck becasue he wants weed, you better act fucking fast, and you do and usually alot stronger to.

PS : How do you put photos on this site??

__________________
Utmost Respect.

Tom Yum

TKD as trained for the tournaments is mediocre for real self-defense, because it lacks punching to the head, kicks to the legs, clinch work and takedowns. Still, the speed and force alot of higher ranked TKD guys can generate is amazing. The snap round kick won't really do alot of body damage, but if it lands on the head, it can KO. Same with the hook kick. The apex of karate/TKD style kicking is someone like Bill Superfoot Wallace who can throw head high kicks at 70 mph, has used them in full contact karate and KOd many.

The most usefull kicks from TKD are (in my opinion)

1. Side kick - Some Korean guys can throw double and triple side kicks as fast as boxers work their double and triple jabs. As a matter of fact, they use this kick as a jab, but it can do a lot more damage. It can be used offensively and defensively.

A great example is one time I sparred a Tang Soo Do guy. Whenever my hands moved, he picked me off with quick, hard side kicks to my rib cage and my hips. He could have landed them on the thigh/knee as well, but we agreed to keep things above the waste (more for him than I).

2. Spinning back kick - If you use this sparingly, it comes as a suprise and lands with alot of power. If targeted at the body by a proficient TKD/TSD guys you will get KOd. If targeted at the thigh/knee, your leg might be useless.

3. Spinning heel kick - same as above. Except, I notice a slight difference in how TKD throws this one and TSD does. The TKD guys throw it like a snapping hook kick. You turn over, chamber your leg, and throw a hook kick with your hips through the target. The TSD guys throw a wheel kick, which comes out straight but also finishes with hip follow through.

4. Twist kick (or reverse roundhouse) - This one is a suprise to most people too. This one can catch someone who tries to move to your open side. It is especially powerful when thrown by the rear leg, quite a coincidence since moving to the open side is where alot of people will go when fighting TKD fighters.

IMO these kicks are strong enough to keep people in the kicking range if used effectively. If you're fighting someone who has good defense, the snap round kick or hook kick are not prudent as they will get inside and pound you or take you down.

Pros: These kicks can generate alot of power because hip turnover is used to varying degree. Kicks can be used offensively/defensively. Using a few kicks and perfecting them is a good strategy.

Cons: Throwing kicks means you have to keep a higher stance and therefore a higher center of gravity. You are spending most of your time with your weight on your back side. These kicks can't generate full power at the infighting range.

__________________
Love it, leave it or fix it.

MADDOG

The problem is not just with TKD it’s with all art’s that have forgotten their martial roots and have evolved into something totally different than their original intention.

Old style TKD was a very effective means of defending one’s self. It was basic and that is what truly works in a combat situation.

Today’s TKD – WTF & ATA – Please note that I am labeling the organization not any individual practioners. I have trained with some WTF & ATA practioners who deviate from the core teachings of their organization to provide a valued MA. – Have taken TKD and evolved into a sport only –or- a franchise opportunity. Either of these two options is fine if this is what you are searching for. The problem is that the public is asking many times for self defense skills and what they are getting are a sports answer to their need or a McDojo watering down or martial principals for the almighty dollar.

TKD, Kenpo, Kempo and Karate has experienced this.

The one art that seems to have maintained its original roots is Aikido.
The real question, if you agree with the above statement is why can Aikido maintain a greater degree of respect than our TKD – the MA community?

Ed Barton
An Old American TKD MDK

Spookey

Dear Sir (all),

I have one base belief as to why Aikido has remained less tainted than the other arts you mentioned.

The publics exposure to martial arts via mass media has created a need for more commercialized (soccer mom friendly) "martial arts". Secondly, sports have been used for political gain for centuries. This being said and generally not disputed we come to my opinion.

With out a detailed explanation...Aikido has been the most recent (in my opinion and knowledge) of the arts you listed to gain full media coverage.

Karate (everything from James Bond to Power Rangers)...remember "Karate" is anything with karate chops and fancy kickin....

Taekwon-Do (WTF Olympic push)

Kenpo- Ed Parker's publicity and Jeff Speakman movies (not to mention Elvis)


TAEKWON!
Michael Bateman
Bateman Taekwon-Do Oh Do Kwan

Broadsword2004

Hmmm, well to me the side kick is pretty worthless unless you are fighting some untrained dumbo. All you have to do to block a side kick is use your elbow; when the person's foot comes at you, you smash into their ankle basically, and that pretty much ends their side kick cuz their foot is gonna hurt like hell.

Unless maybe you're up against some good TKD guy who can throw super fast side kicks, and might like fake one lower, then go with more power high so that you try to block the low one and thus open up your head, but for people who can't throw fast side kicks, they're kinda useless if the opponent knows how to handle them.

eXcessiveForce

you could say the same for a punch. If you do it slow it isn't going to be useful. But fake low and go high with some speed and you can knock the guy out.

Besides, just hit the arm. It will break or drop it down and take the knee or the thigh that sets up for a nice hook kick to the head or a knee what ever you feel works best for you.

__________________
eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

www.b-prime.com
A success and achievement community