brokenelbow

...how come the explanation of the patterns techniques in Chois encyclopedia are so damn lame? Half the time they make no sense and the others are so basic, incomplete and take no consideration of what the next move in the series is.

Help me out here spooky.

__________________
The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

Damnit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

DM

Spookey

BrokenElbow,
Please, let us start with a specific pattern and sequence so as to afford me a better understanding of your specific problem/question regarding the Chang Hon patterns!
I hope I can offer assistance as I cant say I am familiar with situations from which you speak!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

Damian Mavis

Please don't read the ITF encyclopedia to judge ITF TKD.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

brokenelbow

Thanks Spooky,
Off the top of my head Joong Gun there's an elbow after the knife hand block. If you block according to the book you'll be out of range to deliver the elbow. This happens in other patterns in the book too.

__________________
The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

Damnit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

DM

Damian Mavis

No you are just flat out wrong and seriously dude, you should NOT be critiqueing another styles patterns that you don't know anything about as you come off ignorant and stupid.

In Joong Gun you go from a L-stance knife hand block to a walking stance upwards striking elbow and it by changing stances moving the front leg you actually move forward into range and bring the elbow up right were it should be.

Try not to move your fingers when you think ok? heh

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Spookey

[In Joong Gun you go from a L-stance knife hand block to a walking stance upwards striking elbow and it by changing stances moving the front leg you actually move forward into range and bring the elbow up right were it should be.]

Dear Sir, the above quote from Mr. Mavis is correct!!!!! When referencing the Patterns section of the Encyclopedia you must carefully read the instructions...also, at the beginning of the section it incourages the reader to look back upon the individual movements for greater understanding of the technique...as in the class room teaching process it is important to teach/learn each technique correctly prior to studying the pattern!

In order to have a more pleasant experience in Chang Hon (Oh DO Kwan / ITF) Taekwon-Do you may wish to start at the beginning...I your first lesson (if teaching yourself from the Encyclopedia) be the Training Secrets ("understand each movement and its application clearly)!

Feel free to ask as many questions as you wish...feel free to contact me via E-mail!~

TAEKWON!
Spookey

brokenelbow

It was my style for years. I'm critiqueing the explainations in the encyclopedia not the style or the applications my master taught. Why write volumes on patterns if you aren't going to give proper explainations.

I'm lookinging at the book right now (volume 9 pgs 227-230) and with where the initial block is employed (I'll ignore that neither the kick or punch would hit the defender) and footwork described in the diagrams, picture and text that isn't going to happen. For the technique to work as described in the pattern you have to be in closer with the block hitting the part of the bicep closest to the elbow. At least that's how I learned it.

Spooky, In regards to the pattern applications the editors seem to have forgotten Training Secret #5, "To become familiar with the correct angle and distance for attack and defense."

__________________
The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

Damnit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

DM

Damian Mavis

Brokenelbow, what kind of moron tries to learn martial arts from a book (I don't mean you I mean why is the book important)? I don't know, but I've never been concerned with the contents of the encyclopedia because it's totally irrelevant. Learning TKD involves training and sweating and bleeding, not reading. The book is full of bad mistakes and alot of stuff has been revised since it was written. And I have never seen a good description of how to do patterns ANYWERE.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Spookey

Broken Elbow,

I do not have the full set...only the condesced (1999) and it is a major improvement from the 1972...

The book makes a good instructors reference for info...however, one (even an instructor) should have some type of technical support (his instructor, INO, NGB, fed, org, ect.)...

The book posseses far enough info to be considered valuable!

TAEKWON!

brokenelbow

You're right spooky there is a ton of interesting information in those books that make them worthwhile, that's why it struck me that the applications of the patterns are so badly done.

For example, volume 4 page 28 is a nice pictoral explaination of the proper way to set up a side piercing kick (aka side kick) in case your opponent attacks before you get the kick off. The foot is chambered at the knee, but the good parts are 1) the kicker is turned to face his attacker and not with his hip leading, 2) his guard is up and lined up with his attacker 3) best of all is the elbow block that comes down on the foot of his side kicking attacker. I can find things like that through out the books that show someone knew what they were doing. I just don't see it reflected in the section about the hyungs.

__________________
The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

Damnit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

DM

Spookey

Sorry for any misunderstanding. You titled your thread "If Oh Do Kwan is so good"...the title set the mood for conflict (especially when you called me by name) and I was willing to fight the fight ("the good fight" pardon the expression in my opinion).
Again though I can not speak regarding the Encyclopedia set as I only have the condensced!
But, always willing to speak regarding the Oh Do Kwan or the application of techniques!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

brokenelbow

Sorry about that Spooky. I was going for your opinion on a subject that was frustrating to me. I just hate to see a good technique explained badly.

Not when it's supposed to be an authoritive work. If the applications in the beginning patterns are incorrect, like the opening move of do-san being shown as two totally seperate techniques, and those errors are then passed on by instructors because it's in Choi's book, it's a dis-service to ODK students. Pet peeve of mine, if you're going to have your students do kata make sure the movements have meaning.

__________________
The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

Damnit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

DM

Damian Mavis

The truth is I really dislike patterns (poomse not kata! Kata is japanese! haha). So the encyclopedia has even less value to me. But I'm surprised you are picking on the patterns section when the self defence section is god awful.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

brokenelbow

Kata? Whoops! I've mostly left the TKD fold and I'm now doing karate and I'm always mixing terms. Still like ODK/TKD but there is less emphasis on learning kata in the karate class and more on how to hit people more effectively. What got me on the books was I replaced my old hard copy set with the one on CD. While going through the material again I was struck by how much things weren't consistant. You could tell that mostly a lot of thought was put into the material but there are some glaring exceptions.

I found that the self defense section had better information on poomse/tul/hyung applications. For example Po Em has a move that's two elbows going out to the sides the bunkai for that in the PTH section is you're elbowing two people. The self defense section has that move with the more likely application of breaking a bear hug. Page 301 has a move out of the Gracie playbook. There are some good joint locks that could easily be made better and some nice kicks from the ground. The self defense section isn't horrible just very much a mixed bag of good and bad.

On the other hand... All of the knife defenses should be suspect based on this counter to a knife attack, "Flying middle punch with left fist, upset punch with the same fist in a consecutive motion." When has punching someone while jumping straight up been a good idea in a knife fight?

__________________
The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

Damnit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

DM

guy incognito

All korean martial arts can be traced back to and draw from the the same sorce.That sorce is the ancient and mysterious art of No kan do