eXcessiveForce

I've never seen someone chamber in a streetfight, probably because they got knocked out first.

In addition, over the last 20 some years and the many martial arts I've been exposed to, most execution is the same.

Vertical or horizontal makes little difference to execution.

Basically if you want to break it down simplistically

Karate, TKD, and such generally throw straight punches every punch comes in the same line as a jab.

Kung fu (wing chun) (JKD) centerline punches a bit different but still comes in a basic straight line.

Boxing, jabs, hooks, crosses, uppercuts.


Yes there are many different punches, some leave fingers out, some hit with the first two, others the last three.
But in the end the punch has to make contact with power to be effective. For that it has to take either a curved or straight path to the body. In that it is universal.



I guess I just don't figure the trivial stuff matters much. But if that's how you train go for it.

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eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

zhorner

oh no, oh no....not another one of these guys. we just learned the crescent kicks in my tkd class. they are stupid. you are stupid. no you can not kick someone when they are nose to nose with you. i would just get you in the clinch, and i have a feeling you would fall without the use of a fireman's carry.........

oh lord, why did you allow tkd to come to the united states? why does sircnay have such a terrible case of zack horner penis envy? when will these potatoes learn that the best MA is just free style fighting? You know as much as i do that crescent kicks, inside-out, or outside-in are useless against anyone who has at least the athletic ability of a 3-toed sloth. please answer my prayers and allow sircnay to wind up in uco's wrestling room on thursday night at around 6:30. i will show him the light.

p.s. lord.......please forgive me for the overwhelming amount of porn i download. this cable modem is the devil. in jesus christ's name.....amen.

SimonM

This is the mistake you make. The precise nature of any given punch, which part of the hand you strike with (the smallest three fingers being the WORST possible one) the axis of rotation of the hand, the angle of approach and the starting position of arm and hand compared to the end position of arm and hand are all crucial. As for chambering, I agree it's not smart but I've seen MANY TKD places and even more Karate places that teach a full hip chamber.

Most punches can be categorized as: Jab, Center Line Punch, Revese Punch, Hook, Uppercut, Backhand, Hammer Fist however these are general outlines, mostly to do with vector of approach and striking surface (I didn't even bother addressing striking surface in my initial post but there are basically 7 viable striking surfaces on the hand [Knuckle, Fore-Knuckle, Palm, Ox Jaw, Edge, Inner Edge, Backhand] 8 if you include spearhands though these are of limited applicability except vs soft targets) there are then variations like the Phoenix Eye. So really my estimate of 500 or so different possible (notice I never said practical, I specifically said some configurations were foolish) punch configurations was probably an underestimate. In a real fight the situation will start with one of three actions in all likelihood: push, grab or punch. In all three of these situations trapping and striking will be much more likely to end the confrontation than kicking. So why do martial artists who claim to be teachers! Teachers! Say that knowing propper punch configuration is inconsequential?

eXcessiveForce

First before I go any further I'll have you review the post of mine you quoted and realize that it was a response to the use of boxing terminology when I spoke of what we teach as taekwondo.

Now, half of the strikes you listed aren't punches.
Backhands, ox jaws, spear hands, knife hands, ridge hands, and such are not punches, they are strikes but not punches.

Now, when you are talking offensively, best to go with what works. and in a street fight that is mostly open hand strikes, however if you are going to use closed hands, your going to stick with the basics, Jab, Cross, Hook, Uppercut, maybe a backfist and if you do krav Maga you will be using hammerfists. (note the last two aren't punches but they are hand strikes) Boxing is probably the best when it comes to punches, add a bit from wing chun and you have about all the basic variations that you will need.

Defensively, there are only so many approaches. so as long as you know how to block, evade, parry, anything coming in on one of those angles you have a basic defense. It doesn't matter what enters on one of those angles. It doesn't matter if the fist is at a 45, it still is approaching at a certain angle. It doesn't matter if the fist is horizontal or vertical it still has to approach at a certain angle. it doesn't matter what part of the fist is the intended striking surface because it has to hit first before that would matter. It doesn't matter if it's chambered because the punch is never going to happen as they are going to get blasted into oblivion long before they get to throw the punch.

Anyway, if you chamber you get hit, get fancy you get hit.

sounds like you have been play fighting with the kung fu boys and not paying attention to how real fighting works.

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eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

SimonM

No you just don't listen. I already said Chambering was stupid. If my Sifu heard of me doing that in a fight he would not be impressed. I did say that I have seen many Karate schools and quite a few TKD schools that DO instruct that; it's part of the reason that I doubt the efficacy of TKD. Second: I was not advocating learning 500 different closed hand strikes I was merely pointing out that there are hundreds of potential ways a strike could come and to try and pidgeonhole all punching into a couple of convenient categories disregards the variance within what constitutes a "hook" or in other words not all punches are equal.

Oh and if you doubt the efficacy of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts to produce real fighters you have been looking at the wrong tournament ring. The gym mat is for the Wushu guys, they do the pretty flips and impress the rubes. It's the Lei Tai where the real fighters are, big raised platform, no ropes, they do San Da there. But it's probably not for TKD guys: they punch to the head.

MAfans

How about someone that can throw a strong pichiagi in the head or in the ribs, that should work in a streetfight right?

Tom Yum

or a pichagi into the liver....then they will want to go pee (pun intended)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but pichagi is a TKD roundhouse kick that lands with the ball of the foot as the contact point (vs. the ankle/instep..baldung chagi??).

Yeah, that pichagi into the thighs feels like a hard 'hammer'....but quite a different feeling than the muay thai 'baseball bat' .

Gaffer

These kind of threads really make me chuckle to myself!

"It's not the dog in the fight, it's the fight in the dog"

Take care,

Garth.
www.bfmaa.co.uk

Danster

I would like to say a big hello to all TKD practitioners and instructors out there.
It saddens me to see that there are alot of ignorant people who did not research more about TKD and then babble away like experts.
I did TKD many years ago in my teens and learned so much from it. It taught me discipline, and toughened me both physically and mentally.
TKD is a combination of the various kwans in Korea which was unified by General Choi. So naturally there are techniques on punching, kicking and grappling.
Grappling is normally taught after the student has earned his first Dan and when his physical strength has also improved. Alot of people have the misconception that a black belt is the culmination of 3 years of hard work and that he has neared his peak. The truth is the journey has only begun once a student has earned his black belt.
Taking TKD to the streets can be devastating to the opponent, it all depends on the TKD practitioner. A strong fighter that thinks on his feet will usually win the day.

aku aku

Like anything else, if it lands it should work fine. If it missed or the opponant grabs it you might be in trouble.

TKDTyger

Well aku aku this may interest you some, but as the TKD practicioner decides to take TKD to the next level, higher dans, 1st-4th, we are taught a few different techniques to counter leg grabs. There are different techniques for different types of oppenents. Most of them are to catch them by surprise.

Example: Most ppl will grab a leg and try to sweep the planted leg. We are taught to bend the knee on the leg that is being held and use their body as a "new" foundation. If there is time to jump using the trail leg we do so, bringing the trail leg up bent so the knee can hit either the ribs or groin.

If there is no time to launch from the back foot, we practice pulling our body closer to the oppenent by bending the held leg and force the oppenent to fight for balance. Sure this technique, both people tend to end up on the ground, but since the TKD person initiated the "fall or takedown" the grappler would lose their surprise and make it somewhat more easy for the TKD person TRY and excape or defend.

There is more to TKD than fancy high kicks. One benefit to being a TKD practioner in a street fight is that everyone feels they have to worry about our legs and they focus more on the feet then the hands. Punching is a normal, natural thing. We train to punch, we dont train face punching in TOURNEY's only, but we do punch. People need to think about this when asking about TKD in a street fight..

If we practice kicking all the time, we practice many different styles of leg work, and we have great conditioning, what makes ppl think it would be easy to catch us? We are as good at "fleeing for an opening" as we are in kicking. Someone comes after us, we are at the advantage b ecause TKD is a very defensive MA and we use "running away" as bait to allow our opponents to move where we want them.

Of coarse when I refer to "us" or the "TKD practioner" I am speaking of those ppl who take the MA as both SD and Sport and are adept at the MA because We all know to be good at TKD, one needs a certain amount of "natural talent." Either you have or you dont.

Tom Yum

Natural talent comes from developed talent spilling over from other areas.

Take your average woman. As a kid, chances are she probably wasn't told to participate in sports. As a result, she doesn't develop strong balance, hand-eye coordination or strength. If she enrolls in your TKD class, she will have to play catch up to the women who ran track in highschool, participated on the dance team in college and maintained a constant level of physical fitness throughout her life.

Guess whos going to be able to kick harder, faster and defend better? This is an example of where its really a case of nature vs. nurture.

If you have two people with very similar backgrounds (two football players i.e.) and place them in a wrestling class, then the one with the ability to learn faster and use natural talent comes into play.

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Love it, leave it or fix it.

aku aku

I agree that tkd has lots of great stuff. Much of it is poorly trained in
the classes I have seen but I place blame with the instructors and not with
the art.

I think that any technique in the martial arts, if successfully applied,
will serve its intended purpose. In a fight though, there is no guarantee
that any technique will be successfully applied no matter how good it
sounds over the internet. Such is fighting. This is why I prefer so-called
safe techniques; moves that have a high probability of success and are easy
to recover from when they fail.

I had an instructor once who always trained "bail out techniques". These
are follow up moves he would use when his first move didn't work. Say
someone grabs your leg so you jump off the other leg and aim your knee
to his groin, what is your bail out technique? What if he grabs your other
leg? What if he moves and you miss? What if the knee lands but doesn't
have the desired effect? What if you end up on the ground with a superior
grappler? I'm not trying to tell you it won't work but I think these are valid
points to consider.

TKDTyger

Well there are certin situations that require a "bail-out" technique. And yes when someone grabs your leg you always have to consider doing just that. As far as using the back leg knee to the groin is used in the effect of someone "holding" your other leg, and using their body for balance. There is more to the technique then just jumping kneeing the oppenent. The complete technique is this:

Someone grabs your leg. (catching the foot from a well trained TKD-artist is HARD) Bend knee, lean forward, grasp his shoulders for support, pull him towards you, (his retaliation will give you the support needed), jump or lunge(height matters), (continue to try to completely bend the held legs knee), bring back leg up to groin. After contact most likely 2 things will happen, he will 1. let go of said leg due to either hit or near miss, 2. he blocks by rotating is hips, however, with the weight and pressure applied by the held person (holding of the shoulders and pulling forward), moving will jepordize his balance.

If you miss with the knee, follow up with a head butt, elbow, or whatever. There are numerous things that most BB are taught in situations like this. This is only one example. This technique is practiced with fast fluid movements and takes less than a second to perform. This is something that anyone can do as strength is not the most imporant factor of the move.

To Tom Yum:

Yes, an athletic person will have a better chance at martial arts. I have witnessed children who have the same upbringing and equal amounts of training, but the top 5% of those young kids accel at the Art. I am not talking adults as finding natural talent is near impossible. To be great at competition TKD, the younger the better as far as training goes. No one can argue that nor can anyone argue that natural talent is sought and found at young ages. If someone can practice as much as another why are there not more Michael Jordan's, Babe Ruth's, and other oustanding, record breaking athletes? MAs as any sport, natural talent is found at a young age.

Now compairing a non-athletic person against an athletic one, is a no brainer. I know that adults are hard to train. They listen and understand well, but they can not do most of the techniques properly. Not because they are incapable, but they lack the years of stretching and conditioning. However a 16-17 year old kid will not face the same obsticals that the older adults do. Most kids are not told not to participate in sports, NORAMLLY the kids who do not perfrom in sports are the ones that lack the natural ability of hand/eye coordination, or they are the ones that are affraid to get hurt, embarressed to learn in front of others, etc. Women, I am not too sure about. I know all my aunts and my female cousins and my 2 sisters all have blackbelts (aunts and cousins are Korean and recieved their belts there.) My family pushed the athletics for health issues and even though my whole family studied TKD, we only have 3 national champions.

Just trying to prove that natural talent is something real and not trained.

jubaji

LOL

I'll file that under Extremely Unlikely!

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